Shopping Cart Theory

I discuss Shopping Cart Theory, and how this simple philosophical test can inform how you create motivations for NPCs in your games or how you reward players for quests.

[JBrander]

me, not looting Doc Mitchell's house (even tho the items inside can be taken for free) because he is a good man who saved my life and he's just trying to live peacefully after his wife died.

[MilkmanYeti]

I once saw a guy just leave the cart next to his car and try to back up. It slowly rolled into his way and his bumper.

He gets out and adjusts it again; then gets back in his car...the cart slowly slides into his bumper.

He gets out cursing, grabs the cart and SHOVES it hard...up the hill. The cart gains quite a bit of speed, SLAMMING into the car and visibly scratches his rear left door.

He doesn't even stop. He just backs out and with it scraping his car. I just stood there in awe.

[retropwned]

Tim starts off like everybody's favorite Grandpa but then slowly descends down the spiral to the dark side of game development

[ClellBiggs]

If you're one of those people that do things because it's the right thing to do you have to be careful around the people that only do things for rewards. They will use your sense of right and wrong to take advantage of you. I'm not sure if this is intentional or subconscious (I think most of them are unaware of it) but it's something you have to be aware of and watch out for. Took me a long time to learn this.

[arcan]

The Dog: "Who are you always talking to...?? 🤨"

[eugeneworthington]

I often tell people that because this theory has become so widely aware, even though people might not call it “shopping cart theory”, people understand that they will be privately ridiculed for it. I live in NoVA with some of the rudest, apathetic people I’ve ever seen and/or met. I’ve never seen a single cart not returned to a corral. It’s like we’ve collectively recognized that it is sociopathic behavior, and now they realize it and have conformed to it.

Like I actually unironically think that if a major party candidate… at least for one of the parties… was actively caught not returning a shopping cart, they would lose votes.

[talideon]

There's a twist on this: I know of a lot of parents who will put the coin in the trolley lock and leave it up to their kids to bring the trolley back. The kid gets to keep the coin while the parent incentives prosocial behaviour.

[wormerine]

All I can throughout this video is is Tim questioning everyone whom he sees not returning the shopping cart.

[gamesafoot]

Hi Tim, as a British person, can I just say what a lovely and unexpected outing that was for the word "trolley"? Also, as a budding videogame developer, your channel has been a constant source of information and inspiration. Thank you for all you have done in your career and continue to do.

ETA: For cart/trolley enthusiasts; in the UK it is standard for trolleys to require a £1 coin to unlock, which you get back when you return the trolley. It seems to be a very effective system.

[SyndicateOperative]

It's all about maintaining order for me. Such institutions are systems that our communities rely on - each customer is a cog in the system. I do it for the next person, just as the previous person did it for me.

One thing I'd like to mention is a notable pitfall of having a reasonable/justified villain: Often, the player will want to side with them rather than whatever milquetoast "good" side they're railroaded into. A series that is infamous for this is Far Cry - people always want to side with Hoyt and Pagan Min, because they're just far more reasonable than your allies, and far more ambitious and charismatic.

Now, let's think about Fallout 1: What if the super mutants *weren't* infertile? How many players would instead want to side with the super mutants, with the "bad end" where you join them instead being seen as a potential good ending?

[Anubis]

Working in retail for over a decade, i see this almost every single day, and the shopping cart example doesnt even scratch the surface of how petty, lazy or malicious people can be. Its really quite fascinating from a sociological perspective!

Over the last two years, we've had three fights in my store, in the exact same location, and all for the same reason: someone blocked the aisle with their cart, and instead of taking half a second to move, they started arguing about it.

Last time was just a couple weeks ago, and the offending person threw a glass jar of salsa that almost hit someone else. It's incredible how people will risk physical harm instead lifting even a finger to avoid inconveniencing someone else.

Like you said, this can teach narrative designers a lot about behavior. Not everything needs to have some structured, lore-based reason, or clear and logical cause or purpose. Without some direct benefit, people will do whatever they feel like doing, consequences be damned.

Sometimes, people are just dicks.

[sumguy]

Never underestimate a player's desire to do good for no reason.

[jobiy]

Compassion begins when you can see yourself as the cart deserter and redemption begins when you can see yourself as the cart returner.

[x]

I've read some discussion online on morally complex side quests.
Many times it's a question: "what should I do?" or "what did you do?"

And just as many times the first or most popular answer goes something like:
"Best reward? Do this; Now what I did...", followed by paragraphs explaining how they reached a conclusion after much analyzing.
Going by the answers, many go for the most morally correct over the reward, but maybe it's just the autoselected group that actually considers the morality of the options in the first place.

[UlissesSampaio]

7:02 Philosophical: there is a great video by Veritasium on Game Theory ("What Game Theory Reveals About Life, The Universe, and Everything") which was an eye opener on human interactions.

[bugzymaccode]

The soda pop bottling company I worked for in the 80's used to have machines that would serve the old 6.5 and 10 oz. bottles for free. People would grab one and leave them all around about 2/3 full in the break room. The company started charging a nickel, and people started appreciating them.

[bluespiritrecords]

I've never had a term for this, but it's something I've noticed before and always wished was implemented in games more. So often, the good or right thing to do in games is assumed, and it's on the player to go out of their way to do something selfish or bad if they feel like it. But that's not how actual bad things happen, really; it's actually the inverse, as you said. More games should have the bad/evil/selfish thing to do be the easiest or most rewarding, as that's how it often is in real life. All you have to do to be a bad person is not be bothered. While you often have to care and go out of your way in order to be a good person.

[sofaking]

I love this. Thank you for sharing.
I always love when an RPG doesn't just let you "be" good, it makes you put in effort to be good. Meanwhile the bad route always looks easier, or faster, or more rewarding up front so it's always tempting.

I can think of maybe less than 10 games I've played that really nail this.

[MJ-mkjg]

I just want to say thanks for doing all these videos, its so great to hear from someone who's been there & done it. I'm 61 but i still remember playing Fallout for the first time. All the best from Yorkshire

[omiwa]

Having the material rewards for being good be better than the rewards for being bad never made any sense. This can suck the fun out of evil playthroughs. The “I don’t care” expedient shopping cart dumper would be a paladin of good if it paid the most. I thought Infamous for the ps3 handled this well. Good playthroughs felt like making a sacrifice to save those characters who you care about. Evil playthroughs were about getting drunk on power.