Michael Jones @InspiringPhilosophy Vs Tyler Vela @TheFreedThinkerPodcast : Divine Hiddenness EP 276

#debate #theology #christianity #theism
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[stevefraley]

Divine hiddenness only works if God is absolutely hidden. If He has revealed Himself to some people, but not others, He is only hidden in a relative sense. This is why skepticism about the existence of God necessarily entails skepticism about the reliability of human beings. If God has not revealed Himself to anyone, or doesn’t exist at all, every person who has claimed to have had an encounter with God is either a liar or mistaken.

[BraxtonHunter]

Love the inception analogy. That was worth the whole debate, but… I love both of these guys, and they gave us a great video.

Also loved the analogy to IP answering questions for his viewers.

[endygonewild]

A big problem with making an argument from divine hiddenness, especially when it's an internal critique like in this debate, is that what often happens is the person making the argument essentially states that they think that they think God could have done better according to their own personal view, for example Tyler stated numerous times that he can think of trivial ways to weaken Divine Hiddenness, and the problem with this is that the Christian God is an all-knowing God. It seems very strange to make the claim that you, with your limited knowledge, actually has a better understanding than God would(although the counter point that the Christian God is all-knowing doesn't 100% disprove Divine Hiddenness, it is very significant, as it makes Divine Hiddenness a harder claim to justify). And It seems that Tyler really didn't succeed in overcoming this burden. A good example of this Is Tyler's idea that it would have been better without the fall, which even with humanity's limited knowledge, doesn't really hold water. Because of the fall and the evil that was brought because of it, God was able to show more of his beauty and love, as without the fall we couldn't have had Christ's sacrifice. Everyone seems to intuitively know that some goods, that we all value, necessitate evil, and the evil and sin we experience allows us to experience and appreciate Gods Love far more than if he had just had us in heaven from the start. Michael's point about how a person making an objection with Divine Hiddenness is like a Christian making the argument that because they've had a personal experience that they can't prove to other people and that therefore other people should be convinced of Christianity, was excellent. It's not really convincing to state that you personally think that the Christian God is false, because you personally think he should've provided more evidence(The reality being that he would simply have to provide sufficient rational evidence), it appears your kinda just stating that because you feel that that is the case, that other people, who really aren't convinced that God is hidden, should henceforth be convinced. I respect Tyler and think he's a smart guy, but I think his objection of Divine Hiddenness is one of the weaker arguments against the Christian God.

[metalministershow]

This was a really good discussion and I am grateful to everyone involved. It was nice to see this level of discussion, as opposed to the usual yelling at one another.

[TrueShepardN]

Great conversation! Both sides brought up good points. Although I think Michael had better arguments and was a stronger debater than Tyler. I my self struggled with divine hiddeness but worked through it after reading different arguments for and against it and came to a position similar to mikes

[nemgz]

@1:40:57 Tyler didn't seem to understand the question. How does he know God is not evil in his view? In Christianity, our revelation posits God is truth revealing and cannot lie. Nothing in his bare bones theist view lets him know his god is not evil and therefore not tricking him into thinking his faculties are reliable to make conclusions about reality.

[Erik_Danley]

Not everyone in our culture likes the Sound of Freedom. I wonder who doesn’t like it. Speaks volumes to me

[AndyAshenden]

Tyler, if you want an explanation for how the trinity may ground rationality, you could read Augustine's De Trinitate where he deals with the intellectual and rational appetitive faculties of man and how they imitate the Trinity. Thus, there is a conceptual grounding in how our faculties work.

[lordblarg]

SlamRN's question at 1:50:34 was excellent. Tyler's answer was less so. If Divine Hiddenness is an internal critique, as he admitted it was, his response is meaningless. And, in either case, he doesn't answer the internal critique of his own view either. If Divine Hiddenness is the reason to abandon Christianity, why would you then adopt a view of an even more hidden god? It is quite the strange position.

[chaosinorder]

I never trusted Tyler, even when he claimed to be a Christian. And honestly, I’m starting to think I was right that he was never one of us to begin with. He only thought Christianity fit with his Neoplatonistic understanding of theism. And when he found out it wasn’t, he jumped ship.

[garrettcameron]

I didn’t know what divine hiddeness was before this debate. 😎

[dylanmcphee]

@TheGospelTruth Marlon. What do you think about getting a debate set up on the topic of the atonement and the different theories held. Penal Substitutionary Atonement vs Christus Victor theory for example.

[Switchback]

Great conversation…. Thanks guys! Tyler, I appreciate your sincerity and wish you well on your faith journey!

[jkm]

I wish they had defined Divine Hiddenness and provided evidence that God is in fact hiding. If they did and I missed it, please send me time stamps.

[ZacharyCath]

IP's opening statement is a lead-off home run.

[silverlining]

I know IP is wrong about non-resistent non-believers because I am one. It's as clear in my brain as "I think therefore I am." And IP is not a mind reader.

[resurrectionnerd]

No matter how you slice it, God's apparent absence is more expected under naturalism or a form of indifference (a god who doesn't care to intervene in human affairs).

[addyjoy]

This feels like the problem of evil re-vamped
Edit: will say, I appreciate how good faith this was.

[AndrewFordham]

I would never, ever thought a couple of years ago that Tyler would be debating a Catholic and I would be pulling for the Catholic. Life is strange.

[BibleLosophR]

33:55 As a Christian Presuppositionalist, I think an atheist might want to attempt to formulate the "Teletubbies Reruns Argument for the Non-Existence of God, " or TRANG. <grin>