The Tonewood Debate

This is a follow-up to a video that I published a while ago, and the rather heated response that it received.

The original video was about whether or not the wood that a guitar is made from affects the way that the amplified guitar sounds. This time around I say again what my opinion is (and it's just a personal opinion), talk a bit about the reaction to that, and the way that the comments/debate went.

Please feel free to continue the discussion, but please keep it civilised, and avoid personal sniping, etc. I will try to moderate the comments here - if your comment gets deleted then it's because I feel that the content isn't appropriate, and not simply that I'm removing it because it in some way disagrees with my personal opinion.

[truthguitar]

You are spot on about the insulting, rude rhetoric that comes from the anti-tone wood side. Your video is refreshing to listen to. My view as a builder is that wood does make a difference in solid body electrics but so small a difference that it is impractical. More practical are the pickups, and a guitar made out of softwood like pine can be made to sound far better than one made of ash or alder simply by installing excellent quality pickups and controls. When I was growing up in the late 60's, if you wanted your electric guitar to sound better, you simply got yourself a better amp! And even today, as a builder, I recommend that solution. Have we forgotten about the amp factor in these discussions? The idea of a guy tearing apart his Strat in order to switch from basswood to swamp ash for "tone" sake -- when all he would really need do is get a great amp and the difference would be phenomenally greater in actual tone.

[dennishawkins]

hi im 61 yrs old and have been working on guitars an amps for over 45 yrs. had this tone wood issue back in the 70's an wasn't hard to figure it out then. im a ham operater and the have built many antannas in 35 yrs. the problem is u cant build a antanna with out understanding the theory of how an antanna works, witch is wut happened to me in 1972 because 2+2 wudden equal 4. hence after that I have put a lot of yrs in theory. I've seen all the different vidios. the one who has got it correct in his test is Sound Engineer. Dunkin used woods to close in dincity. also pups mounted on pickgaurds are diff than mounted to the body. sustains from diff woods can be heard in the time in sustain an when u use a soft wood an a hard wood it stands out. it shows on the computer and scope and sound. no matter what wood it is, if the grain an dincity are close, u will not here a difference an so many of the test done had the dincity to close to tell. there are test that show a diff in sound and the tonewood deniers never will do the test proper. we did the same test with 40 diff guitars back in the 70's an it stud out like a sore thumb. some will sit there an show all the theory on there board an there math is rite but has messed up on some of there theory. an yes I do understand sound waves to. we didn't have the fancy computers back then. but no matter wut, there is no way that using 40 diff guitars several diff times thru the yrs was wrong. but no matter how many test done, the results were the same and could be heard, an yet they sit there an say NOPE! like Sound Engineer said, if u cant here the diff, then maybe u need to start playin the tuba.sound isn't just tranfered to the body by the nut an bridge. the sound waves are transferred to the body by the string too! an then back thru the bridge an nut. it seems that everybody forgot ab that part of theory. math doesn't mean anything if u don't undertand all the theory behind it. I figured that out back in 1976. I can take an ele guitar and play it next to another an u can put ur ear to the other guitar an here the sound in it, No AMP! everybody has been so caught up in the string to nut an bridge not realizing the sound is going into the body from the string audio wave an thin thru the nut an bridge an thin into the strings. I hope this has helped. thanks Dennis Hawkins.

[blowie]

I love the coriander analogy! I think the debate probably stems from the fact that people that may have budget guitars (eg a basswood tele copy or something) want to feel that their instrument with the right tweaks can sound as good as an expensive guitar just by changing pickups or bits that can be changed - but the possibility of tonewood making a difference puts the realms of a budget guitar even further out of reach if that makes sense so that's why it is so widely debated.

I personally don't believe it has as profound a difference in tone as what some people may believe but there are so so many variables that affect a guitars tone that it goes beyond measure. Things like plectrums used probably has a far greater influence alone than wood used.

[MisterGuitarItalia]

I think that by now it is quite obvious that some people truly cannot hear the difference in wood... what's weird is how extremely upset they get that some of us actually can. It's like color blind people getting pissed 'cause we can see red and green as distinct colors and they can't... very funny. Incidentally, if you take the time to listen to samples of these "no-tone wood" gurus' playing, it all kind of starts making sense...

[Dreamdancer]

The question is simple: if nice resonant bodies that act as speakers were required then why the solid body electric guitar was invented in the first place?The acoustic guitar has a truly resonant body where the size, wood, air contained inside it makes a big difference since it acts as a speaker....given all that why they made a separate instrument from a solid slab of wood and not fix some pickups in those nice resonant guitars that were already there?

[steelstringvenom]

I think the most important aspect is what MIDI vst's you choose to produce the bass and drums to play your guitar to on the track.

[Ndlanding]

<Just been re-reading this thread (with a couple of drinks in me.) Took out all my guitars and gave them a hearing on headphones, cause it's the middle of the night. And through a Marshall Valvestate combo, which is a bit crap, really. First I tried my Samick Strat (90s, no mods) and it sounded good. Plywood body. The a Ken Rose Strat, which I just bought cheap. More powerful, but no great tone. Real wood, I think. Next was my Samick LP with Seymours, which I love (it has a bolt-on neck, BTW). Didn't sound as great as usual. Blame the amp or freebie headphones? But it is a solid wood jobbie and does sound great. Then I decided to go get my '65 Fender Tele, with 3 pups, the bridge rewound by Kent Armstrong in 83. Shit, it was night and day. All the pup positions sounded stronger, but more importantly, they had CHARACTER. I don't believe it's all because of the pickups (I don't even know what the middle pickup is!), but the PRESENCE was amazing.It was like the wood talking to me! Bottom string  to top, it was like a piano or something, just a million miles above those copies, even though they sound good on their own. Gotta be the wood, which I stripped and oiled over 30 years ago. I don't think that transferring the Fender (or whatever) pups) to the aforementioned guitars would make much difference.The Tele gave me a woody. :) Great for heavy, too!

[pelimies]

Hi, Hopefully not sounding too negative, people with opinions on this matter have usually zero understanding of waves, or physical theories concerning wave propagation. My opinion is that body has an effect, that is tonewise so small, that it is not audible when playing through the amp (which is quite usual when playing electric guitar :) That said, I also like to say, that what body has larger effect is the decay of the sound (i.e. how soon the sustain will die out). But this is not a matter of tonewood, it is the basic property of all the materials in the universe. This is why we can build the guitar out of any solid material without affecting too much the amp's sound, although the acustic sound will be hugely affected. So, what affects more on the sustain, is the construct and rigidness of the joints and bolts of the guitar. This will have affect the acustic tone also. For example, making a tele from softer wood, with very well bolted neck and tightly attached brigde has similar effects that harder wood body that grants automatically better surface to make the screw/bolt attach tightly, and so it will not need as good workmanship to achieve the same rigidness. Everybody agrees, that loose neck will kill your tone/sustain? And everybody agrees, that metalbody guitars can hugely sound overbright? This is the reason, why softwood guitars cannot sound as crisp as guitars made of harder wood. Of course, you can gimmick softwood body to sound brighter, by adding plates or inserting harder material under bridge, which is ok by me. Now, all this said, the things in the guitar that REALLY affects greatly your amp tone, is the pickups, the pick/fingers you use and the thickness of the strings you use. Of course, putting volume/gain on 10 will make all this irrelevant.

[neilpincus]

If I can hear the springs in a Floyd Rose equipped guitar, how could any sober person try to force an opinion that only your strings impact on your sound. 

[tussk.]

My issue with this is that, as many have said, there is no evidence for tonewood. All we have is opinion peices and self righteous indignation from self procalimed experts who flounce off in a huff when you question the sensitivity of thier advanced hearing. If you can't prove that the wood an electric guitar is made from makes a difference once it's plugged in with a simple test, then you shouldn't go looking for a complicated one. Im on the anti side, and I have seen and conducted plenty of tests that I can repeat and get the same results. The pros have still to do that.

 If somebody on the pro side can perform a simple test that doesn't rely on appeals to authority or 'common knowledge' then I will be glad to listen and see what you did to see if you have it right,  but until then all you have is theory, magical thinking and your own personal opinion. 

If you apply a little critical thinking and ask how it can be real instead of why it is, I think you'll start to see that it's perhaps a little far fetched and doesn't really make sense. part of the problem here is that some people either don't understand the question or they don't understand how the guitar works, and just throw up non sequitars like 'newtons 3rd law' because they have confused science with statements of questionable relevance. Yes, the wood will vibrate when you hit a string, but how can those vibrations find thier way back up the string, and how can they be different vibrations from when they started? Thats the question that needs to be answered, but so far nobody has answered it beyond 'I can hear it and I've been a guitarist for more than 20 years'. Well, so have I and I can't. So much for that. My opinion cancels yours out and we're back where we started, only now one of us, but not me, is pissed because our musicianship has been called into dispute.

There are too many people muddying the issue with insults and personal attacks, we all know who Im talking about here, and if they would just keep quiet then we could have a civilized debate instead of an arguement and slanging match where it appears than any insult, no matter how low and dirty, is permitted. Shouting loudest and smearing your opponent in an arguement doesnt make you right, it makes you an asshole.

If you want to prove tonewood then you have to show us, not just tell us you're right. We have presented enough evidence to the contrary and have got nothing back. This isnt a win or lose arguement, its about learning and finding out what we missed, so please carry on trying to prove it, but do it with actions, not words.

[famousguitars]

Some super points Mate! I did one of these myself because I got so tired of hearing the guitar community debating this subject in a negative way. Feel free to give it a view, and tell me what you think. Oh, I subscribed to your channel. Cheers!

[michaeljustice]

I can put it in even simpler terms. If you fret your low E string at the 12th fret and pluck it and then lightly touch it and pluck again for the harmonic you need to understand why they sound different. There both an E right? Why do you get that chiming sound with the harmonic and not the freted E? It's because with fretted E your not just hearing the tone we call E! Your also hearing overtones with the freted E. Consider this strum an open G Maj and then play a bared G Maj. There the same notes and pitches right? So why do they sound different? It's because they have different overtones. Overtones matter and tonewood affects the overtones. Some people might not be able to hear it but for those of us that have spent hours and years studying the art of music can hear it. To us lame ass comments about wood not matering is offensive.

[rupertphillynott]

Tonewood does NOT have a significant effect...Case Closed!!

[gilleslafontaine]

I watch a lot of videos on this subject. I never saw a 'pro tone wood' proving his point with facts that can be verify, it's only opinions. I think you need to prove your point.

[dennishawkins]

I didn't  want to get into all the debate varebles of strings, nuts, bridges, picks, pups, necks, frets, bodyshape, ect, ect. it still stands out. the only reason I sent a coment was because everyone forgot the most important part of the equation. string to body then thru the wood then back thru the nut and bridge to the string an then delivers a diff sound to the pups. it didn't matter wut was used, it made a diff in sustain and tonal sound. but u have to have 2 tone woods of diff tones to here it. but its not worth all the fighting an trolls.everybody is intitled to an opinion, but it is wise not to make an opinion on something until some learning about theory on how certain things work an have proof to back it up. but then again, several people have showed the diff in tone an sustain on videos with out fancy theory an people still denie it an rant on because of this an that an thus an so. its fun to discuss, but its not worth fighting an trolling an trying to destroy someone over because he has a diff view, no matter if there rite or wrong. thanks for letting me join in.

[tonefingerz]

its simple the different woods resonate different in my hands so it feels different. and that different feel makes me play different therefore affecting the tone. i have a jackson thats pretty dead feeling and when i play it i find i loose inspiration. get sloppy. timing is off. . my LP makes me dig hard. so im sure its a dud wood. so iis that simple. it makes u feel different therefore play different there4 tone is diff. and sustain is tone. obviously denser woods help sustain. sustain is tone

[manuelvieira]

I used to believe but now i don't, the wood is only effective as long as a magnet will stick it, not very .This has been gone over by very knowledgeable people, think about it and you may come around as well .No one has had an answer for it as of yet, as to WHY  a magnet wont stick to wood any wood as far as i know .HIstory is not on the pro tonewood side, as far as i have been able to tell.
P.S  i got a kick out finding Curved Space the band on the lost BBC sessions, check out nice tone guitars lead and bass, lol, cheers

[MrShbbz]

Go watch WillsEasyGuitar, you obviously have to.

[xaplax]

does the mass of the bridge really effect the sustain?  i know that is the dogma.