What Was Paul's Thorn in the Flesh?

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[carvalone]

I appreciate the conversations ❤ I believe they are important to hone our spirit of discernment. Thank you all 🙏✝️

[johncollier]

Dr. Tabor, as an expat myself, I'm intrigued by Saul/Paul the Greek, Jewish, Roman citizen who emigrates to the Jewish homeland to study the Torah, the eternal outsider wherever he is. He must've suffered from a pervasive inferiority complex that would've driven him to constantly strive to overachieve to compensate, also in regard to himself, his own self-image. So he was going to be the best Jew, the best Torah student, the most zealous persecutor of heretics, and once he became Paul, he was going to be the best disciple, above the others. He was going to be the only Jesus whisperer to the risen Christ. Do you have insights into his psyche that would suggest anything like this?

[Roctrin]

found out about dr. tabor via Ehrmans current podcast.

Thank you for all the awesome content!!!

[joelblackford]

In 2006 my wife left me after twenty years for a Jewish man in a tortured, devastating way. I’ve been interested in marrying again, but I’ve kept myself busy with improving my Hebrew, Greek and eschatology. I’ve always sensed Paul was married, like a good rabbi, and he was agonizingly aware his wife left him. His thorn is my thorn.

[dinocollins]

Dr. Tabor have you heard about LDS doctrine on this verse? We have strong beliefs about this verse: esoteric sacred teachings, ascending to heaven, and three degrees of heavenly glory.

[d-vision]

Paul's trade was tentmaking. Interesting video.

[vincentguthrie]

Very insightful, Thanks so much.
God Bless You

[danixmoffat]

When I was first learning the Bible I remember picturing Peter as Paul's thorn in his flesh.
I thought Paul was maybe annoyed by or envious of Peter's favour.
Jealousy is an ugly thing and not even those overcome by those feelings wants to hold on to them.
I was not one afflicted by jealousy much but shortly after getting married I did on occassion feel it, and remember being so ashamed to feel it and acting on it was especially disgusting to me.
I now too, think of the thorn as being representation of sexual struggle but everytime I hear it my mind goes back to that first thought for some reason.

[carminefragione]

Maybe Paul's thorn in the flesh was attributed to Jacob who was first to struggle with God and Man and God struck Jacob on the hip, to force Jacob to let go of the wrestle, which today some people call "sciatica" the nerve from the hip to the leg that is a crippling affliction . So it seems affirming that such close calls with God may incur physical impairment, that stifles the pride .

[BatMite]

Simply can't agree with the lust idea. Paul stated, "Now as a concession, not a command, I say this. I wish that all were as I myself am. But each has his own gift from God, one of one kind and one of another. (1 Cor. 7:6-7)" It seems to me that he is saying that he has the gift of celibacy, and that he knows it would be easier for all if they did, too.

Jesus had said, "Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it." To me this implies that only certain people can handle being unmarried, and that the ability to do so is a gift. It seems exactly compatible with Paul's comments above.

So I don't see lust being an issue for Paul if he had been given the gift of celibacy (i.e., being one of the "eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven.")

Truth is, we won't know until we meet Paul, and when we do, his thorn will be gone. We'll have to ask him politely. But that being said, I am most persuaded toward the severe presbyopia idea. Can you imagine being Paul, and being physically unable to read? Having to be dependent on someone to read Scripture to him because his eyes are so poor? And there were no corrective lenses back then, and only lamplight.

2 Cor. 10:10 may corroborate this. If Paul could not see his notes, it may have negatively affected his preaching. If he were teaching and could not look up a scripture, he may even have appeared illiterate.

My two cents.

[EinarGrondal]

I first read this "thorn in the flesh" business a couple of years ago. It never occurred to me that the thorn could be anything but "Sex". Regardless of mindless, instant gratification, sex is the biggest curse in my life. Without it I am convinced I would have graduated (not) to sainthood long ago. 😇

[Darisiabgal]

"Super abundant" Paul spent 3 years in arava sniffing cave guano.

So, I mean practicing mysticism quality is not quantity. As near as I can tell Paul had some experience near Damas (Luke seems to have a few discrepant sources) and he's trying to figure it all out so he does the desert mystic thing for a few yeas.

[johncruz-dszy]

"Thorn is the flesh" as in Numbers 33:55 Joshua 23;13 Judges 8:7 and many others OT verses are cast as expressions of being a RELATIONAL stumbling block to be overcome.

[microcosm]

Would also go along with the message of the Angel to the churches in Revelations who said that the false teacher was teaching the heresy of balaam and sexual immorality… in the same city where Paul would go to Lydia’s house alone 😬

[bigvince]

Very interesting. The explanation of sexual temptation has merit as it's commonly experienced, increasing its probability. Yet it implies he's willing to confess such a thing openly to his disciples, and that seems an unbelievably courageous (and naive) thing to do. The poor parishioners would have to watch their daughters whenever Paul ('small') was in town.

If true, it would be the first preemptive confession of this sort among the tribe of randy evangelists! 😇

[Nogill]

Temporal lobe epilepsy would explain his visionary experiences and mysticism, plus some aspects of his personality. Compare Paul to Philip K. Dick, just for grins.

[willempasterkamp]

Paul = Germanicus = the elevated horny, thorny agave (Agabus) = Augustus (heir, abdes to Tiberius princeps). So what was Germanicus (Zebedeus) thorn ? Oh boy where to start with, at least he was not divorced ; Agrippina (maior, Salome) having 6 children did serve the case of her husband faithfully, being brutally whipped (lost an eye on that ocassion) and finally martyred. Maybe that was his thorn ; he couldn't protect his wife and 'twin' after he died, but bit an anachronism : post mortal regret.
It is easy to say his thorn was his biggest rival ; Tiberius, but as a pharisee he was loyal to the princeps/king till the end. Maybe his betrayer/servant Lucius Sergius (Seneca) was his thorn then ? but he praises Demas as his most loyal co-worker where his own twin sacked him. Maybe it was his own ambition ? As a 'Camillus' of Tiberius he could not give up his position (his god-given right) or his richness, but rather goes a Camel through the eye of a needle then . . Or maybe it was a youth sin ? As Pantera Sidonia he set the trap, he lured his fellow comrades into surrender ( 'paul persuaded fellow christians' ), Tiberius advised by Seneca ordered to finish them all off ( 'paul asked Kephas for binding written orders, letters' ) . . . what let him no choice ; 'The evil I don't want, that am I doing', It cursed his future life. Or maybe his Calimero syndrome ? always be looking for the good part, not to look back in regret on his lifecycle, his conscientiousness . . Only God may know . .

[niccoloaurelius]

Hard to know, but I definitely have always thought this is what Paul meant.

[rwc]

Very insightful. In another place he encouraged even old men to take a wife and even though she is past child bearing age, they sin not if they submit to Christ and each other. Bed undefiled. He warned of sure trouble at some point with a wife. I believe the 1000 years will be the elect raising up the foundations of many generations and restoring paths to walk in. Having children and learning war no more.

[elizabeth_]

Wow….cool. Wish I could take your class.😁