#40 – Nested Observer Windows: the case for hierarchical consciousness

In episode 40 of the Justin Riddle Podcast, Justin provides an update of the Nested Observer Windows (NOW) Model. The paper describing this theory was recently published in the open-access Neuroscience of Consciousness journal (link below) and this video is an extended version of the Plenary talk that Justin gave at the Science of Consciousness conference in April of 2024 in Tucson, AZ (link below to conference recording). The NOW Model describes the mind as a nested hierarchical system in which there are many different cognitive systems within the brain at multiple scales. We are familiar with neuron-centric theories of consciousness, and yet why are we so fixated on the level of the neuron. There are synapses that comprise the neuron, there are microtubule systems within the neurons that appear to be electrically active, and there are neuronal population dynamics above the neuron which display prominent electrical properties. The cellular level is one level within a multi-scalar system. Evidence from cognitive neuroscience is suggesting that the low-frequency macroscopic electrical activity in the brain is closest correlated to cognition and brain stimulation techniques that drive these neural oscillations can reproducibly create changes in cognition. Therefore, it appears that these macroscopic scales are “causally” relevant to cognition. How then do all of these multiple levels connect to each other?

Observations from neuroscience show us that these multiple scales are electrically coupled to each other, a phenomenon called cross-frequency coupling. With coupling across these multiple scales, there is a mechanism for how information processed at different scales can be communicated up and down the nested hierarchy of the brain. The NOW Model essentially takes cross-frequency coupling very seriously. Your mind is at the apex, the top, of the brain hierarchical system and there are nested cognitive processing systems within you. A model by which there are nested cognitive systems explains a whole range of psychological phenomena that are not current explainable under single-level neuron theories of consciousness. For example, the fact that we are only aware of a high level of abstraction of our experience and yet can interact with a rich perceptual landscape and initiated complex motor movements can be explained by an interaction between ourself at the slow apex and the lower levels. Another explanation is how slow our cognition really is: the NOW Model suggests that we are operating in the time range of 1 cycle per second or even slower. Our thoughts are sluggish and filled with abstraction (perhaps a key to intelligence) but contain the richness of the faster systems. Beyond capturing a deeper range of every day experiences, the NOW Model also readily accounts for dissociative identity disorder and new psychotherapy techniques that conceptualize the self as a family (internal family systems). This is just the tip of the iceberg from changing our self-conceptualization from singular into a multiplicity of nested systems. There is a lot of work to be done in this space to validate the potential cognitive reality of the NOW Model!

~~~ Timestamps ~~~
0:00 Introduction
12:30 Overcoming reductionism
22:22 The closest correlate to cognition
31:40 Electrical coupling across scales
38:24 Mosaic tiles of experience
49:15 What is it like to be hierarchically conscious?
1:02:06 The NOW Model in exceptional systems
1:18:12 Consciousness in the brain and body

Plenary #6 Talks from The Science of Consciousness 2024

Previous episodes of relevance:
- Episode 16 on Slow Wave Electromagnetic Mind
- Episode 17 on Nested Hierarchical Consciousness

Music licensed from and created by Baylor Odabashian. BandCamp: @UnscrewablePooch

[sterlingcooley]

Awesome work Justin !!! So good to see you posting more

[bluetensormedia]

anyone looking at Fourier transformations from mHz, gHz, tHz microtubule resonance? Specifically frequency modulation, as a partner function to phase and aptitude modulation, has the capacity to produce high frequency EM wave dynamics, this is the basis of radio and internet telecommunications, and is one of the fundamental functions of EM wave modulation. Seems like animal nervous systems are exploiting EM wave dynamics like frequency modulation to encode and signal-boost memory pathways.

[johnc]

What a beautiful paper, thank you for sharing. I hope there will be many more in the future, Cheers!

[loriedmundson]

Wow! Thank you for doing the research.

[Clover-qznl]

Thank you for sharing your work with the world 💕 it’s a really special theory and it makes a lot of sense to me to put it into a bigger perspective of being observed by others in the universe and they might be observed by others in the future 💕 it’s really important to share your work with others in the future because it makes it easier to understand the universe in the future for us all ❤️ thank youuuu and have a good night

[tomatoturtule]

Waiting for the next video. I binge all of your videos in just a week. Man you motivated me to learn about quantum science.

[TLabsLLC-AI-Development]

I made my own nested reference architecture. Never seeing yours before. Good times. It's happening!

[晚风故事]

Nested Observer Windows (NOW) Model! Consciousness emerges from multiple scales

[smithright]

This has parallels for agentic teaming as a potential basis for AGI. Very insightful work. Thanks for sharing!

[simesaid]

I think that the "driving" example just goes to show that although we may usually _be_ conscious of our actions, that does not mean we are controlling those actions. Indeed, we are not. We aren't "driving" ourselves in any way at all!

And we know this is at least true for _most_ of our lives. Given our understanding of physics and modern neuroscience, and in the light of a slew of recent experimental findings, there simply isn't much room left for free will in any case. If we _are_ in control of anything then it's _not_ those everyday actions such as deciding what to order for dinner or what to watch on TV later that evening. Moreover, you have to perform some tortuous metaphysics, as those in the 'compatibilist' camp do, just to hold onto the belief that we can exert some influence over long-term decision making. You know, like excusing yourself from the laws of physics.

The question I always ask is, if evolution gave us our conscious awareness in order that we could focus on, and pick-out, different brain states that may be important to our survival, then why is it that whenever we become conscious of what we're doing we almost always fuck that very same thing up?

And if you don't believe me, just try focusing your attention on how you walk, or breath, or talk... It never ends well.

We're definitely in a vehicle, but we're not driving, we're just passengers along for the ride.

[scottkessler]

Seems like ADHD could, in part, be explained by the NOW model. The quick acting vision sub window processing data at a fast 6 Hz is allowing this data into the Apex. The Apex is being overwhelmed by the vision or sensory data that is normally filtered. The amount of data being seen by the Apex can be adjusted by taking neurotropic drugs to promote or inhibit neuro transmission. I've always thought my son, who has ADHD, has a "clock cycle" that is running fast. Perhaps faster than the 1 Hz a typical Apex is running. He is very observant and notices things quickly and things that others don't. I wonder if psychedelics allow the Apex more access to the sub windows?

[cocoakusubuu]

If you've done psychedelics, these models seem intuitive. You can literally observe the "observer windows", and sometimes your mind will make up scenes where you can see the dialogues literally happening, whether or not you're involved or just watching it happen.

[leonstenutz]

¡Subscribed! Just 'discovered' you & your channel. Deeply excited to dive in. Agree with all you state on the description of your channel. Yes, decisions, actions -- and each individual life -- matters, often greatly.

[djannias]

🎯 Key points for quick navigation:

00:57 *🧠 Update on Nested Observer Windows Model*
- Justin recaps a lecture on the Nested Observer Windows model, now published in the Neuroscience of Consciousness Journal.
02:18 *🚗 Driving Example and Mind Functions*
- Driving example showcases different cognitive processes operating simultaneously in the mind.
- Demonstrates the concept of mind wandering and cognitive systems operating autonomously.
06:28 *🤔 Implications of Hierarchical Consciousness*
- Highlights the idea of multiple competing interests within the mind.
- Explores the ownership and creation of thoughts in the mind.
- Discusses the concept of control over bodily movements and influences of nested systems.
12:36 *🧬 Biological Motivation for Hierarchical Consciousness*
- Discusses the motivation for hierarchical Consciousness from observations in biology and neuroscience.
- Challenges the reductionist approach in studying consciousness in the brain.
18:34 *🔬 Evidence for Brain Nuclei and Neural Oscillations*
- Explores the evidence supporting the existence of brain nuclei and the significance of neural oscillations.
- Examines the correlation between neural oscillations and cognitive processes like language production and visual awareness.
27:29 *🧠 Electric field fluctuations and cognition*
- Delivery of non-invasive brain stimulation to the brain region can selectively drive electric field fluctuations.
- Repeated application of magnetic pulses can change cognition by targeting specific brain frequencies.
- Low-frequency electrical activity in the brain is directly related to cognitive processing and our human experience.
31:38 *🧭 Cross frequency coupling*
- Discovering coupling between different frequencies in the brain.
- Observing sequential activation of neurons in the hippocampus in relation to spatial navigation.
- Exploring evidence of mechanisms for information transfer between nested systems in the brain.
38:52 *🧩 Components of Nested Observer Windows Model*
- Introduction to the concept of nested hierarchy in hierarchical consciousness.
- Use of metaphors like mosaic tiling and theater to explain nested cognitive subsystems.
- Mechanisms such as synchrony, coherence, and cross frequency coupling for communication across scales.
56:27 *🏞️ Perception of nested Observer Windows:*
- Nested Observer Windows theory explains how the mind integrates data from different points of view.
- Perception at different scales impacts the way we experience the world.
- Understanding sentences as fully packaged constructs instead of sequential words.
59:33 *🧠 Awareness of multiple internal sources:*
- Difficulty in being aware of separate sources of information in the mind.
- The integrated nature of the mind makes it challenging to distinguish individual subprocesses.
- The concept of meditation as a way to navigate and understand the complexities of internal cognitive systems.
01:02:14 *🧠 Brain modularity and split brain patients:*
- The brain's over-modularity challenges the notion of a singular self.
- Analysis of split brain patients reveals the potential for distinct personalities within an individual.
- The complexity of the brain structure questions traditional views of singularity in consciousness.
01:10:56 *🤯 Internal family systems and psychiatric illness:*
- Internal family systems theory views the self as a collection of personalities in constant interaction.
- Conceptualizing the self as a family can explain psychiatric issues like cognitive dissonance.
- Understanding the internal conflicts within oneself through the lens of family dynamics.
01:11:49 *🤯 Dissociative identity disorder and nested Observer Windows:*
- Dissociative identity disorder can be viewed as a dissolution of the Apex window and the emergence of distinct sub Windows.
- The nested Observer Windows model provides a framework to understand DID as part of a broader cognitive structure.
- Accepting the existence of multiple personalities within an individual challenges conventional views of self.

Made with HARPA AI

[BR-hiyt]

Ha! I need time to process all this new info, it seems on the right path to me. But my (off beat) contribution:
1) There would be no movement at all (anywhere) without a ticking clock. In a video game pixels advance across the screen according to a Xstal ticking clock in the PC. Think of a line of soldiers (analogous with bits) marching through "gates" - adders or logic gates or processors. Without that "marching" nothing happens at all. Same with our brains and AI - they need "clocks".
2) ATP production (look at the simulation of ATP) is clocked by a spinning lump of protein - a chemical clock. Its actually a real turbine made of protein that whirs round at huge speeds. Further these "clocks" can go at any speed just change the number of atoms or shape or some other feature in the turbine.
So the frequencies in the brain will be produced, probably, by these chemical rate determining protein spinners which ultimately control thought frequencies as Justin mentions.
3) When I am dreaming some of my characters in my dream say things I have never even considered and I kinda "know" I am dreaming and am surprised by what my character said. How did it know that I say to myself.
4) The elephant in the room imo are single cell "thinkers" like amoebae. They are even crafty and remember stuff! They have no neurons at all. So what is doing the cognition in amoeba? To me this is fundamental question that we need to answer ASAP. Am I the only one who thinks this? After watching Justin's videos I now think its microtubules involved in data storage and data processing, maybe via quantum means.

[aj]

Justin, I have enthusiastically followed and read your work since the beginning in Flavio Lab. And had no idea about this wonderful podcast until today. Wow! Thrilled to be following. Keep up the great work. Your content is top notch!

[BruceRiddle-nhdp]

I would think everyone has multiple window / personalities. We have our “work” personality where the sub windows are focused on our work environment and what is important in that space. We have our “parental” personality where the sub windows are focused on children and what is relevant. We may have our “spiritual” personality where the sub windows are more contemplative. Etc etc. Each of these personalities relates to other people within that system, but not necessarily with other systems. Ie my work person relates to other similar work personalities but my work personality does. Or mesh with every parental personality 1:14:59 .

[Grounded-Healer]

Never lonely when Toon Town has so much to share.

[keithwins]

When I can't think of a word or otherwise forget something I'm reaching for, I've developed the response of saying out loud "that's okay it'll come back to me". That helps me relax out of the convulsion of attention that can happen when I demand my intelligence work in some way it is incapable of at that moment. The thing almost always comes back to me, often in just a few seconds
I like the IFS model of multiple selves, and I think of my attention, which may be we can call my consciousness because that's where I'm conscious of myself, that little window of attention I move around, that all seems parallel to your point about the mind chugging away in the background

[rickevans]

Bravo on a succinct and tidy model that satisfyingly constructs a metaphysical framework around the neuropsychological phenomenon of distributed intelligence.  So glad you mentioned the amazing work of Michael Levin!  Your work and his goes hand in hand rather seamlessly.  What he calls a "cognitive light cone" your model calls a "nested observer window" both of which are simply observer reference frames, just as in astrophysics: a model of the world from an observers relative frame of reference.  I am not sure I grok your synchronous concept, especially if you meant to imply 1:1 temporal resolution, as in real-time in the sense of instantaneous exchange of energy or information. I don't see how this could be possible at some levels of abstraction, particularly those dealing with complex metabolic and multistage electrochemical processes. Perhaps I inferred that by mistake and you mean real time from the human "slow" perspective? If not, I don't see how the instant nature of these nested relationships align with the point that we do not have 100% complete and total sapient agency nor absolute control over our direct and immediate actions; the concept you deftly illustrated using the example of optical illusion effects (brilliant example; nice little insta-grok for me there, so thanks for that!) 

Your model and it's promising look into the physiological mechanisms at the human cognition level are so much more than an "apex" level of abstraction!  The model doesn't stop here and extended down into smaller and smaller systems, it goes up the hierarchy of intelligent systems too! Like with today's AI systems, multiagent systems are demonstrating their strength in numbers. It's likely that intelligent swarms are the future!  Presently, our umwelt as discrete individual human minds...our existence as "Cogito, ergo sum"  - the phenomenon of human consciousness is simply a familiar window among countless others along the fractal spectrum of existence. Your work is fertile ground for many fields of study, especially neuroscience, psychology, physics, and, above all, philosophy...particularly the branches that study panpsychist models and similarly audacious metaphysical ontologies. As a matter of course, we can't ever be certain that we alone are any sort of apex. The sentience buck most probably does not stop here. occupy the very top of such a hierarchy, just as the solipsist can't be sure of anything beyond that strange little window he claims as his own. Much like a school of fish navigates as a collective swarm intelligence, so too do groups of people, social networks, and so on up the hierarchy, perhaps to galactic clusters and beyond. Maybe at some point we find it's a quark there on the windowsill. What does it see? Up ahead is the photon again, glowing hot with the spark of life. It's light spilling through the radiant pane at the heart of it all. 

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