Goku is NOT Beyond Time, Here's Why

A lot of arguments have been made over the years in regards to "How Fast is Son Goku?" Well today, we're going to be tackling all of the arguments claiming Goku has demonstrated Infinite Speed, Inaccessible Speed, or even Immeasurable Speed. And find out why these interpretations have many issues when considering the rest of Dragon Ball.

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[surfbone]

As for the Granolah feat, which I completely forgot about. Besides the fact Vegeta literally states he’s using a technique superior to Instant Transmission. Meaning he’s not using Speed to overcome the technique. But Instant Transmission is strictly a teleportation technique. Which is especially contingent on the reaction speed and combat speed of Goku to move his hand to his forehead and activate it. So if you’re just faster than Goku’s Reaction Speed, you can hit him before he can even use it.

But expect more videos on Dragonball in the near future. We ain’t done!

[danielendless]

Take it from a Comic books guy, y'all do NOT want these speed tiers for your shows. It DESTROYS storytelling, creates infinite plot holes and ruins all time related tensions

[SerieT]

7:01 The time skip is not the same thing as moving in the parallel world. Hit himself makes the distinction between techniques when he ironically asks Goku if he seems cordial enough to seem like he's going to use time skipping against Goku like in the tournament. And when Goku came back to life, he said that it wasn't actually a time skip, but that it was something cooler from his perspective.

The parallel dimension technique is derived from the time jump, but they are not the same thing. That dimension was created with the time skipped he has gathered; while the time skip involves stopping everyone's time except his for more than 0.5 seconds in the anime and 0.1 seconds in the manga.

In other words, since time is still moving for Hit, he has 9 hundredths of a second free to move until his tenth of a second is up while time is stopped for everyone else, and after Hit's tenth of a second is up the time moves again for everyone equally.

And Hit was seen hitting Goku in zero time, with his last evolution with which he surpassed Goku's Kaiokenx10. That is resistance to blows with inaccessible speed, because from the victim's perspective time is stopped, and Hit's punches were traveling distances in zero time, forcing Goku's body to move at an inaccessible speed because Hit punches him in his vital points shaking him violently in zero time.

[kalawaki]

The real reason Goku will never have those speed tiers is simple.

If Goku had Infinite, Inaccessible, or Immeasurable speed, then he could do everything Instant Transmission does and more by raw speed alone.

Him having those speed tiers invalidates one of his classic and signature techniques. Which is why the writers will never elevate him to that level.

[Mikeistaken]

This funna start a war with Dragon Ball fans

[ProfessorPrel]

Correct me if Im wrong, but in the Manga, after Zeno destroyed the future trunks timeline, the time ring in the main timeline that represented that universe was Also destroyed. Does this imply that Zeno did infact erease the whole timeline as a concept, or did the ring dissapear because that universes timeline was gone aswell

[Mrsir]

Now I have a good argument against that one guy that said goku has irrelevant speed

[lucidstudious]

A nitpick about Hits Timeskip:

It's clearly stated by vados that hit actually "skips forward in time" hence why the name is time skip. Then she explains his pocket dimension by saying "he stores the time skipped" (meaning he already performed timeskip) into a pocket dimension that is "parallel" to this time. He then can "move freely" through that dimension

The phrasing and context here is important because unlike how you explained it, both techniques are different. Also his dimension is different from the room of spirit and time. While the hyperbolic time chamber is basically just time dialation, hits pocket world is built from time itself. think of time as a youtube livestream. During a live video you can visit every moment that already passed. However even if youre watching earlier events there are still live events happening (the video is still moving fowsrd in time). Hit in this case can only store milliseconds of that livestream

All of this to say, Jiren moving and breaking out of that is very impressive because he quite literally surpassed time (the time stored in that pocket dimension). Whether that makes jiren above time idk i just wanted to explain a small mistake you made 😂😂

[terrillwilliams]

3:46 Ki is just one medium in which energy is possessed in. Shockwaves is that energy running through another medium and when it spreads it becomes inversely proportional to the square distance of the source. Which means the shockwaves at its zenith which would be Kaioshin Realm has far less energy than what Goku and Beerus was letting out.

[TheHedgememe]

Really good video! Everything was explained quite well here.

Also, what is the song that plays at 2:33? I've been looking for it ever since I saw the Xenoverse 2 cutscene of UI Goku fighting Kid Buu.

[FatefulMedia]

To be fair when it comes to stuff such as cosmology or deminsional tiers, we must remeber Toei and Toriyama are VERY bad at consistenty, logic, and power creeps.

Great video though, gives me stuff to think on.

[yoguyslookatmypetlightsabe]

Toriama: goku has surpassed time itself
Fans: your wrong.

[uncertifiedhater]

@surfbone This is part 2 of my debunk/rebuttal to the the video, specifically to the arguments made on Goku in reference to whether or not he has shown feats of immeasurable speed. (Part 1 has already been posted)


Immeasurable Speed Goku: Your stance is that Goku does not have immeasurable speed based of the Hit fight where you argue that his time skip is based off him going into a parallel world and resurfacing rather than moving forward in time, making Goku's feat more so one of martial arts rather than a speed feat. This is wrong for multiple reasons. You confused Vados' explanation of another technique for the function of time skip. Time skip was clearly explained in the U6 tournament as Hit skipping multiple milliseconds to seconds in the future. The technique that Vados was explaining in the rematch of Goku vs Hit was a new one that Hit created after his fight with Goku. This technique actually uses time skip as it's precursor, with Hit being able to store the time he's skipped in order to create a parallel dimension of time. It's with this technique that he can hide while an intangible image of his body remains in the physical world. Essentially Hit's version of kamui. And just like Kamui Hit can bring others into this world expect time flows different in this parallel world. You explanation of time skip comes with problems as for one, why would Hit be surprised in the U6 tourn. that Goku could move with him in the parallel world if time moves with them at the same rate as demonstrated when he uses it on the mob boss? Time skip in itself is infact Hit going beyond linear time and "skipping" into the future. When the fight begins between Goku and Hit, base Goku was able to predict where Hit would attack based on his own openings. When Hit improved enough that even with SSJB Goku wasn't able to predict his movements, he was forced to kioken which is specifically meant to raise speed and power of the user, not their battle prowess. Even before the feat where Goku is shown reacting, moving, and countering Hit skipping time, they specifically made it a point to display Goku's speed of all things, and how Hit couldn't track his movements, basically a foreshadowing of his feat shortly after when he pushes himself to his max kioken. Based off all of the evidence it is clear Goku in fact did display immeasurable speed against Hit in the U6 tournament. 


Side Note: I'm not too sure what the point of the Dyspo vs Hit reference was considering Dyspo was attacking Hit before he can use Time skip based on his shifting muscles, a counter only available to Dyspo because of his extremely sensitive ears. This has nothing to do with Goku's feat where we see him moving with Hit with time skip already in effect.


Part 3 to be released soon…..

[godzillakingofthemonsters]

Some of these arguments are genuinely stupid, and others were never the arguments to begin with.

Let's talk the universe first-a large amount of guides and statements from the series would mean the universe is infinitely large. Bulma in Super says they're at the edge of the universe but on the maps this is shown to be false. They're not to scale, but they are location guides. Anyone crossing the universe would be infinite speed, as it's much more consistent than any finite claim.

Whis' staff. It's quite apparent Whis' staff's travel speed isn't on par with him in combat nor is its power, as it could create a blast Goku could deflect in Super Saiyan 2 in the anime at least and in other anime episodes (finding a clip is proving difficult and I know it's in Seth's Goku video but I refuse to give a pedo watch time), Goku was able to catch up to a flying Whis in base form. Don't think I need to go over why that's a dumb argument.

The shockwaves, Beerus and Goku surpass these to such a ridiculous extent even in the same fight saying they don't scale is idiotic. Further, your point on the shockwaves not being ki is irrelevant. The shockwaves were from the force of their blows colliding. As such, the blows hit hard enough to PRODUCE the shockwaves of such speed-which is why Goku has to PERFECTLY counter Beerus' power, angle and speed in the fight to cancel them out. Thus their blows either have infinite force or infinite speed, and since this is Dragon Ball where 99.999% of the time the two stats correlate they'd just have it anyway.

Hit doesn't just teleport to another dimension, you literally even PUT THE SCANS in the video where Vados says Hit does skip ahead in time, then uses this stored time to CREATE his pocket dimension. Hit also describes the ability as jumping ahead in time by fractions of a second. If Hit does not skip time, he cannot create his pocket realm. Simple as that.

ToP, considering the ring itself can be breathed on it's very likely the World of Void is a void and Grand Priest simply placed time, air, and other factors in the ring. And Beerus is generally credible regarding things like this if not Whis would correct him so I don't think the statement itself is wrong. The things that would warrant it being a speed feat though are Jiren, Goku and Toppo forcing their ki out to the World of Void. While Goku and Jiren shaking it can be questioned as shaking infinite nothing is....weird, Toppo objectively covers the WoV in his purple Hakai energy. So either the infinite part or the timeless part would be valid for those feats at least. Or you have to say Beerus is wrong and I don't see any reason why he would be.

Zamasu. He literally performs the feat in question, and such feat is reacted to by multiple characters as you even concede later. He is visibly shown spreading throughout the universe and timeline. Also, did you forget that the Time Ring forced the rift to close? Which is how Goku Black went back to the future mid fight with Goku?
"Is the distortion in space and time returning to normal?"
And "Zamasu would likely still have the time ring" his body was completely destroyed, the ring along with it in the very scene before this happens. This is a blatant lie to the audience. As is the omnipresent part, as he is shown ON SCREEN as you show IN THE VIDEO doing.

Arguing against the Zeno one is also just idiotic. The anime shows the time ring, which represents the timeline, go dark and lose shine. In the manga, it completely disappears. The timeline was erased. Not just what was in it. This is again just a lie.

Those last two arguments are weak and fall apart with any context because they're just blatant feats. Best case for you is to call outlier, but they happened and just saying "uh well I don't think it's that way" is just dumb.

This video was dogshit. Debate me if you want to stand these shitty arguments.

[khalidhamed]

This was a really good video, definitely worth the wait. Can’t wait for more videos in the future.

[JustSomebodyOnTheInternet]

9:27 That makes more sense now. I dont think it was ever really explained in the anime (at least not in the dub anyway) as to how Goku overcame Hit's time skip.

[Felow]

Something where you were completely wrong is to say that infinite Zamasu would have the time ring, because Fusion Zamasu was completely eliminated by Trunks and even so, Zamasu left his physical body completely. he would have no way to hold something like the time ring to use it.

[numbug]

One small question
Wouldn't Goku and Beerus generating the infinite speed shockwaves still be evidence that they can attack at infinite speeds (and thus react to them), without necessarily meaning that their travel speed is the same?

[silvertongue._]

This is so well done and some points I was trying to make a long time ago with arguments on the point. They get so caught up with making characters way strong they kind of except crazy notions without a second thought

[terrillwilliams]

5:50 well you're also forgetting that the shock waves were stated to grow stronger than the point of collision which means cannot scale to their shockwaves from this scenario.