A Different Conversation About Systemic Racism

The Michael Shermer Show # 434

Brown University professor and author of "Metaracism" Tricia Rose says Coleman Hughes is wrong, systemic racism is very much real in 2024, and we can't claim to be colorblind if we are to adequately address it.

Shermer and Rose discuss: the policies, practices, laws, and beliefs that are racist in 2024 and what can be done about them • racism, structural racism, systemic racism, metaracism • Rose’s working-class background growing up in 1960s Harlem • being “caught up in the system” • Trayvon Martin, Kelley Williams-Bolar, Michael Brown, and George Floyd • Rose’s response to Black conservative authors Shelby Steele and Thomas Sowell • why she believes Coleman Hughes is wrong about colorblindness • Obama's legacy • reparations.

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[jiliff]

I think Michael pulled his punches in this interview.
Not sure why.

[missylee]

As a teacher I also find it super annoying that you can't convince people that we don't teach critical race theory in school!

[brianmeen]

“Racially equal”

This entire conversation is just broken. This notion of “equality” amongst large groups is a pipe dream. How academics cannot understand this is truly beyond me

I think Shermer is like me in that he’s beyond bored of the race discussion

[The_Jolly_Roger]

Enjoyed the dialogue! She’s very knowledgeable and able to articulate these complexities better than most.

[RogerFusselman]

I disagree profoundly with some of the guest's arguments, but I am glad to hear them on the forum. It is vague to recommend structural change without being able to specify individuals doing it, and with scattershot comments meant to make the situation cloudier. It would be worthwhile to listen to this conversation again and to analyze the argumentative game plays, while acknowledging where the author's arguments hold up.

[chrisocony]

Thank you for Tricia Rose for coming on and having the discussion. Michael mentioned recently how he finds it difficult to get people from your perspective on and he's left with only the heteredox, anti-Identitiy Politics (or whatever the label should be) proponents.

[silvertube]

She's wrong again, CRT is different than the idealism of social change in the 70's. The difference is in taking a group conflict perspective on race issues. That's what the word 'critical' means! [to be more precise, critical refers to critique of power structures, in this context the "power structures" are interpreted as racist - assuming oppressed and oppressor groups.] I can't believe she doesn't know that.
The discussion of systemic racism is clearly circular reasoning. It's like a black box, if disparity results then what goes on in the box is "systemic racism". No, to make that claim you must be able to link specific racist acts to the outcomes. Otherwise you're just assuming your premise. You can't just look at the result and assume racism. In her metaphor she used a coke factory. The problem with that is a factory is contained, so the outcome can be attributed to the factory. That isn't the case with complex social systems, you have to clearly define the mechanisms in the social system and show how they produce the result, if not attributions of systemic racism are vacuous and circular.

[davidsvideos]

Some cultures do poorly because they make poor choices. It's not the fault of "the system".

[jennycatlike]

I appreciate Tricia Rose's perspective that Whites are not inherently racist, that alone was refreshing. I also appreciate her emphasis that racism needs to be understood and addressed in a systemic way and that we need to have conversations in order to forge real understanding and change. At the same time I tend to agree with Coleman Hughes that improving the wellbeing of Blacks for the most part can best be tackled by addressing socio economic disparities regardless of race. Also Glenn Lowery and other experts have pointed out that Whites and Blacks below the poverty line share very similar socio-economic characteristics and it is the Whites who are above the median income that skew the socio-economic statistics to make it seem like Whites are better off than Blacks overall. To be fair, there often are more headwinds against Blacks all else being equal like the lingering effects of lower family wealth etc. I bet Dr. Rose's book is encyclopedic and enlightening in detailing the barriers Blacks face. Still, when looking at solutions, to me the most powerful investment would be to level up the educational school systems staring with the zipcodes that have the highest drop out rates, highest poverty rates, and highest crime rates. Whether you want to call the problem racism or classism or whatever ism, the fact that we don't give kids an equal (and maybe I mean equitable) start slays me. I don't even have kids and I can't wrap my brain around the fact that this nation does not commit to providing EVERY child an excellent educational foundadation, and not just academically but with a foundation of nutritional, emotional, and physical well being.

[hannelikotzebotha]

Slavery is not an exclusively European sin - ever heard of the Ottoman Empire?

[DeRocco]

the "systemic racism" she always talks about is ghost hunting

[chmmdyg]

This woman seems very untrustworthy, in trying to fight very non-marginal problems, she is willfully blind to creating more than the ones she is addressing

[bradmartisius]

Thanks for this interview Michael. After an hour & a half of listening, I was impressed with how comprehensively your guest undermined her own arguments as she continued talking. Basically, just another apologist for the lowered standards of DEI, BLM& defunding the police. I suppose I should read her book.

[sulljoh]

I wish people actually LISTENED to this whole interview.
IMO Dr. Rose is not some crazy woke ideologue. A lot of what she's saying is pretty moderate and/or reasonable. Using systems theory (I love these MIT-type approaches) in this context is super interesting!

[KhonsurasBalancedWaytoWellness]

A good conversation Michael. Unfortunately there appears to be a lot of resistance to reasonable ideas, historical fact and other alarmist reactionary statements in the comments section. Many should read the book before saying anything.

[francofrogg]

A little more pushback from Michael was sorely needed. Unless the objective was to point out the absurdity of many of her arguments by not commenting.

[stevenmyers]

This was a great conversation. Both sides did well discussing not just views and opinions, but efforts to change things instead of just complaining about problems or pretending problems do not exist.

[MK-nvsl]

Well, men and women are different, and people of different genetic origins are different. Pretending they are all equal and blaming whoever for different outcomes is silly. Individuals that achieved great success had their own unique traits that made it possible.

[DanHowardMtl]

It's funny that she's at the same institution as Glenn Loury and yet never appeared on the Glenn show.

[ssg]

A 2011 study found that blacks constituted 12.4% of pedestrians stopped by police, and 12.8% of drivers stopped by police. Since blacks make up just under 13% of the population, police do not target blacks disproportionately for street or traffic stops, even though blacks and the media constantly claim otherwise. However, a larger percentage of black drivers than white or Hispanic drivers were stopped by black police officers. Among drivers stopped in traffic stops, there was no statistical difference in the percentage of whites and blacks who were ticketed. However, a greater percentage of white drivers were ticketed when stopped by black officers (64%) than white officers (49%). For black and Hispanic drivers stopped by police, the percentage issued a ticket did not vary by the race or ethnicity of the officer. [Lynn Langton and Matthew Durose. Police Behavior during Traffic and Street Stops, 2011. NCJ 242937, September 2013.]