Why Germany's Biggest Clubs Keep Getting Relegated

Germany is one of the world's great football powers, and the Bundesliga one of the world's great football leagues - but in recent years, there's been a bit of a problem.

Some of Germany's biggest clubs keep getting relegated.

In Schalke, Hamburg, Nürnberg, Kaiserslautern, Greuther Fürth, Hertha Berlin, Hannover, Holstein Kiel, Karlsruher, and Fortuna Düsseldorf, there are now more former German champions in the 2. Bundesliga than the Bundesliga itself, Werder Bremen, Stuttgart, and Köln have also tasted relegation in recent years, and Dynamo Dresden, 1860 Munich, and Rott-Weiss Essen have been relegated all the way down to the 3. Liga.

So in this video, HITC Sevens takes a look at Germany's fallen giants, why they keep getting relegated, and both what it tells us about and what it means for German football.

[puer]

As a big HSV fan this video was excellent.

The part about the second Bundesliga being fun is no joke. HSV has a HIGHER attendance in the second division than we did in the first division. The fanbase is 100% behind the club qnd we're enjoying the season, our team and our games.

[toph]

The mismanagement of some German clubs is really frustrating. Clubs like Hamburg and Schalke should be giants in the Bundesliga and even possibly a force in Europe. Seeing 1860 Munich struggling against Bayern’s B team sums up how polarised those two clubs have become.

[nathanb]

Some of the relegations seem to be self inflicted, Schalke for example went from playing Man City to relegation fodder in a few season. Hamburg’s relegation had been coming for a long time, with them finishing in the top half once in their last 7 Bundesliga seasons

[_marz]

History and tradition, that's why I fell in love with German football. I'm from Mexico but I've never felt prouder to be a Schalke fan especially in these dark times. That passion at every game home and away is just something else. I'm aware it's not easy with the way modern football works but I hope to see all these giants in the top flight someday again. Massive respect to all of them.

[christopherudeh]

Yes the number of former heavy hitters that are in or have been in the german lower leagues is astonishing, however i believe the Premier league would be having a similar tale if not for the 1992 rebranding. Afterall, clubs like Nottingham forest, wednesday, Leeds etc were all heavy hitters in the old english top division league.

[lwandomadikizela]

In summary: Why Germany's biggest clubs suffer the hardest bar Bayern Munich?
1. No clubs in the Bundesliga can compete against Bayern Munich in terms of financial revenue and members.
2. Hamburg and Schalke were in decline after years of poor management from top to bottom.
3. 50+1 rule as positive impact on fan engagement and keeping the football tradition alive however it also brings a negative impact like limiting how much the club can spend on recruitment, club infrastructure and youth academies.
4. The talent pool of young prospects are running dry like Schalke and 1860 Munich and brought in dross players along the way.

I've always admire the Bundesliga in terms of fans being 100% to their clubs regardless how well or badly run it is. Fan apathy is almost non existent in German football and they always keep traditions alive. Sure the Bundesliga is stale since 2013 but I always have major respect for the fan base that would rather stick with the club through thick and thin than to have a similar outcome at Ligue 1 with PSG being ran by Qatar and win multiple silverware. That's why I will keep watching the Bundesliga because of the fans supporting their clubs and like I said, I admire and respect that.

[ozgerm]

Great Video. You are correct, the 2 Bundesliga doesn’t have the best player in Europe. However for value for money and match day experience, it truly is second to none.

[DrZaius]

Actually, the "Englische Woche" (usually used in plural) refers to weeks with more than one game as something that is draining on a team's stamina (which is why the plural form is crucial - three weeks like that can set you back in your league campaign). This is used mostly in the context of European matches for teams that don't have the depth to rotate in those weeks.

[ChrisKinski-urgw]

Nice one! And a pretty good depiction of the mindset of german football supporters. There is indeed more to football than winning trophies!

[paulalexander]

Fs Alfie. I was just going to bed after a night shift but looks like I’m up for another half an hour!
The only YT channel worth staying up for 💪

[shawngillogly]

19:00 German football hates Dietmar Hopp. But if we're all being honest, we do the same thing every time we play Football Manager with our home club.

He's just doing it for real. And there's no argument about whether he's a real fan of the club or who else he should be attached to. Only that he was able to do it well. With the help of people like Ralf Rangnick and Julien Nagelsmann.

[knutolavhalseth]

Very interesting! But you should look at Sweden and make a video why so many fairytale teams promotes to the top league there, Allsvenskan. In recent years Varnamo and Varberg have been labelled fairytale promotions, and the clear leaders of level 2, Superettan now are also labelled a fairytale team, Utsikten. In earlier years we've had teams like Ljungskile, Oddevold, Enkoping, Syrianska, Assyriska, AFC Eskilstuna, Dalkurd, Falkenberg and Mjallby, the latter having spent many seasons in the top flight. But when those fairytale teams fall, they fall hard, and so also some giants. I haven't seen a league in Europe with so many teams suffering back-to-back relegations from level 1 to 3 as in Sweden. The most extraordinary example is Brommapojkorna with this record: 2014: Level 1, 2015: 2, 2016: 3, 2017: 2, 2018: 1, 2019: 2, 2020: 3, 2021: 3, 2022: 2, 2023: 1. One of Swedens most traditional clubs, five times champions Helsingborg are now next-to-bottom at level 2 after relegating from the top flight last season. Giants IFK Gothenburg are now next-to-bottom in the Allsvenskan with fellow giants AIK in the play-off spot. It's quite different from my country Norway where teams relegated from the top flight usually bounce back at the first time of asking. So if you could dive into the madness of the Swedish league it would be highly appreciated!

[thomashopper]

ESPN+ is televising Schalke vs Holstein Kiel at 9:30 Pacific Time today and Hannover vs Hamburg tomorrow at 11:30 Pacific Time in the USA for anyone who’s interested. The Budesliga and 2 Bundesliga matches can be pretty wild and I recommend watching.

[dvdv]

Damn Alfie, you are KILLING it lately!! 👍👏

Thanks for all your work! ❤

Shout-out to the German model. 👍👏

[janhofmann]

Good video overall but i’m surprised you didn’t mention Frankfurt at all. A new stadium was built bevor the WC and Eintracht Frankfurt barely avoided relegation a few years ago but then won the Pokal and the EL in the coming years. Also, with more than 100k members it’s now one of the biggest clubs in germany. And all that with good management and recruiting and not benefitting from a "sugar daddy".

[roanfloermartinez]

At 15:50 bro lists three companies to sponsor teams but they’re all headquartered in Munich lol

[maxsimonis]

A lot of those clubs mentioned in the beginning deserve a whole video about their demise, i would recommend you to take a look at schalke because their story especially with everything going on at the club outside of the pitch is really interesting!

[nottherealChickenJoe]

At 4:52 there is actually the first ever mistake I have ever found in your videos. The picture shows players of the 1. FC Köln while you are talking about the 1. FC Kaiserslautern. Impressive how you never make any mistakes and how that picture also still fit the narrative haha

[JoeMercersWay]

Since 2011, Bayern have spent €286m on 30 players signed from other Bundesliga clubs, at an average of €9.5m per player. That includes 10 free signings, 4 youth signings and they also poached Kovac and Nagelsmann in that time.

The highest fee was Upamecano for €42.5m. There were 3 strategic decimations of rivals. Dortmund in 13/14 and 14/15, Hoffenheim in 17/18 and Leipzig in 21/22.

Neuer, Mandzukic, Dante, Gotze, Lewandowski, Rode, Kimmich, Hummels, Sandro Wagner, Sule, Rudy, Gnabry, Goretzka, Pavard, Upamecano, Sabitzer and Sommer went for a combined €264.5m, or €16.5m.

Sales to Bayern from other Bundesliga clubs are so undervalued that it dopes Bayern's position in the league. If Bayern had to buy that abroad, or a Premier League club had to buy it, it would be €600m or more.

That's where the Bundesliga fails. Not taxing Bayern for commercial revenue doping and they hoover up the best talent from rivals, who have no money to compete in the open market and lose their best talent so no incentive to grow their academies to be poached, so the national team suffers.

If Bundesliga wants to save itself.

50% tax on commercial revenues over €150m, distributed equally to other Bundesliga clubs.
50% signing on fee for a Bundesliga domestic transfer on a free is taxed on signing club and paid to buying club.
When a Bundesliga club signs from another Bundesliga club, 50% of the player's annual wage is taxed on the buying club and given to selling club.

So for example Goretzka.

Schalke maybe got €3m from Bayern in compensation..

With new rules:

Bayern pay €112m to the Bundesliga in commercial revenue tax. Each Bundesliga club with commercial revenues under €150m gets an equal share, so €5-6m each.

Say Goretzka's signing bonus was €10m, Bayern have to pay Schalke €5m.

Say Goretzka is on €12m per year. Bayern have to pay Schalke €6m per year as a development fee over the length of his first contract.

So instead of Bayern stealing Goretzka for free, Schalke get at least €35m for him even if his contract runs down.

Bundesliga would then be truly fair and could point fingers at England. Now they can't.

[scottwhitt]

Another great video. I think having a league where there can be so much fluidity between levels is ideal. Those pics of Newcastle fans were just so sad.