The Rise and Fall Of Paper Mario

In This Video we're looking at EVERY Paper Mario game and investigating the series' initial rise and eventual fall... I blame ttyd... Enjoy!

Thanks for watching!

[quantumphysics]

> plays the mario text rpg story games
> gets mad that there's text

my brother in christ why are you even here

[Arob]

‘This series doesn’t need a story’
Meanwhile the Japanese title: “Mario STORY”

[Waluigiisbest]

if you think SPM had a weak story your snorting glue.

[pluubooruu]

I feel like saying "it's not the thousand year door" is a bit of a misrepresentation. I can only speak for myself but I wanted a storyline more like the first 3, and combat like the first 2. And most importantly UNIQUE PARTNERS. That includes Super Mario RPG in that vein.

Sticker star and beyond just had too many generic enemies that it felt like the first 3 Paper Mario games were in "the Paper Mario universe" and the latter ones were simply a paper version of the super mario verse.

I missed characters like Kammy Koopa, one of the funnest villains ever. Like, why has she never come back in newer Paper Mario games?

It's not that we wanted TTYD 2.0, we just wanted something in the realm of the first 2 games. It would also be nice if we didn't just get generic levels like in Sticker Star... or a particular area that took up nearly half of all gameplay time.

[ElliotKeaton]

"People only hate the new games because they aren't TTYD!"

Fans loved Super Paper Mario.

Mind you, that had the unfair advantage of being a good game.

[patrickshaw]

20:51 Nah, I'll fight anyone on this point. Paper Jam was definitely plagued by the generic Mario sickness that was going on for a few years now. I agree that the battle mechanics are what Paper Mario fans wanted the most, but we also wanted the charm and personality that the first two titles had.

[geschnitztekiste]

My guy, you didn’t actually play Super Paper Mario if you think the story was somehow downgraded. It’s the best damn story a Mario game ever told.

… Did you just complain about having to read? Even though you allegedly want a good story? I don’t think you gave this game a fair enough shot and frankly, you might be a hypocrite.

[mariobroultimate]

I'm surprised that you didn't mention how Paper Jam had no original characters/locations, and was basically plagued by New Super Mario Bros. syndrome.

[RL-Rankorr]

Imagine if Street Fighter 7 came out and it was a shooter. And it’s a GREAT game. But it’s officially SF7, and there’s no word on another 2D Street Fighter game. And then Street Fighter 8 comes out and it’s a 3D fighter. It’s fine… Got decent reviews… but it’s not what Street Fighter fans WANT. They want a 2D fighting game, so they complain. Street Fighter 9 comes out and it’s yet another 3D fighting game. By this point, the 3D Street Fighter games have a fanbase, and they’re pushing back HARD. The 2D Street Fighter fans just want things to go back to what made the series great to begin with. But the 3D Street Fighter fans just say the 2D fans are stubborn and they just want everything to be like Street Fighter 1-6. The 2D fans say “No, we want the series to evolve. We just want it to be a 2D fighting game.” The 3D fans say “It’s still a fighting game. Get over it.” And then arguments over what the series is, should be, and who are “true fans” ensue.

This was a problem Nintendo created themselves. They never should’ve deviated from the leveling based RPG style. They split their own fanbase by doing it. If they wanted to make RPGs more focused on paper gimmicks, no partners, less plot, and pointless battles, they should’ve made a “Paper Yoshi” spinoff while still making traditional Paper Mario games.

[DarkFoxKit]

I think the reason why most fans keep wanting The Thousand Year Door is because many of them had grown sick and tired of these strange innovations Paper Mario was going through when what we had before had been perfectly fine and much more preferable. And the fact Nintendo kept ignoring what the fans wanted in favor of changing what Paper Mario was, it was like a constant slap to the face. Sure, some people are willing to just move on and enjoy the newer Paper Mario games, and that's great. But not everyone is happy with what Paper Mario had become, and they long for the day they get a Paper Mario game that was like The Thousand Year Door, not necessarily The Thousand Year Door itself. And after all these years, that longing will turn into anger and bitterness. That's why the remake is so important, it brings back hope that maybe one day there will be another Paper Mario game with a brand new story with TTYD's battle mechanics.

[linguotgr]

The biggest problem with Origami King is that its combat system wasnt a combat system. Its a puzzle system disguised as a combat system. Thats why you cant have any meaningful level ups or badges, because the goal isnt to damage enemies or reduce damage or wait for the right moment to attack or exploit weaknesses... its to solve the puzzle and one shot them. It cant have useful allies in battle, because, again, the game isnt about damage or defense or healing, its about solving the puzzle. And that wouldnt really be a huge problem, it could have been great, but puzzles repeat, and enemies respawn, so the puzzles get to be more about memorizing than solving, which means it gets super boring, fast. And that makes it more worth your time to just skip fights. IMO one simple change could have solved this. If enemies didnt respawn, each enemy would be like a puzzle that needs solved, and then it would be done. They could even incentivize clearing them all out by tracking enemies killed for 100% completion.

I actually really liked Origami King, but its one of those games i dont know if I would go back and replay. I know the answers to most of the puzzles, or at least I know them well enough that i could re-learn them pretty easily. So right from the start I would just avoid every fight and end up kinda rushing the game. And for what its worth I also mostly liked Color Splash, but it kind of has the same problem, and I feel could be fixed with the same solution. That and Color Splash should have just had enemy HP instead of the weird color remaining thing.

[FuzzySumasshu]

Imagine if the Metroid series shifted to where all of the enemies were nothing but Metroids, and the people complaining about that change were told “Erm, but the series is literally called Metroid. What did you expect? You're just mad that it's not Super Metroid”
No, I think it's valid that people are upset that what used to be the backdrop became the entire forefront.

[ShaydeDragon]

The next time you decide to make a video essay like this, please for the love of god actually *talk* to people who feel differently. Don't just read a handful of complaints online, make assumptions, and then go from there. Don't just write them off as unreasonable, stubborn, or plain wrong. Don't go dismissing people's opinions as a personal fault of theirs. TALK to them. Learn why they feel as they do, and present their thoughts fairly. If you're going to be talking about their opinions, *understanding* their opinions is quite literally the least you could do. I guarantee you'll have less people annoyed with you in the comments, and your own opinions will go over better in turn.

[dr_mercio]

I think you misunderstand why the games "aren't ttyd". It's not just because they aren't ttyd, it's because they don't have any battle systems, stories or characters with substance. Now the thing is, they can have 1 or 2 out of those 3, but if they dont have all 3, then yes they technically arent like ttyd. Origami king had a story, but it had a pointless battle system. The exploration is solely what carries the gameplay. Unlike paper mario 64, ttyd, and even super paper mario, the rest of the games are like a wet fart.

The main point I want to make is that the battle system in origami king isn't bad because it's "unique" it's actually bad because there is no reason to initiate combat unless you're fighting a boss to progress the story. There are no rewards besides coins, there is no character progression or customization aside from gaining more HP. There is basically no reason to entertain yourself with the combat, its not made to give the player any satisfaction.

[frenteticbear]

As a person who is a fan of the first three paper, Mario games I can say with confidence that if you asked me what I liked about paper Mario, I would say the gameplay and story, and I would probably not bring up the paper art style at all. It’s not that the art style is bad it’s just not what people cared for. It feels that the later ones focused a lot more on the paper gimmick of the series. It feels as if most people were not fans of “(“Paper”)” Mario, but instead PaperMario. Again Not saying the paper aesthetic is bad it’s just most people liked the first three for the not paper stuff ya know?

[A_Ali]

I’ve come to see if Super Paper Mario is respected or not

Okay I can accept what was said. It ain’t the RPG game anyone expected but for what it actually is it’s actually fantastic

Also it has easily the best story of any Mario game. No competition there at all, at least in my opinion

[fgfhjfhjfbhfghf]

The thing about the paper elements is that in TTYD its a clear gameplay vs story segregation with them only coming in as either a visual element in puzzles or as transformations unlocked through being cursed to hammer in that these aren't natural powers. In the modern games the characters are literally canonicaly paper and everyone is scared of things of like scissors and rain. Lines in the older games like Kammy worrying about Bowser's blood pressure don't make sense if Bowser is literally paper or even 4th wall breaks like Goombario saying Goombas have "been around since you were in Super Mario Bros" doesn't make sense if the Mario in both games are different entities

[PianistTanooki]

20:56 The Mario & Luigi series used to give us incredibly unique worlds, completely deviating from the status quo, like Thousand-Year Door did. Paper Jam gave us the incredibly sanitized and basic New Super Mario Bros. look. That’s why people complained about the levels.

[Darth]

I think it's disingenuous to dismiss any criticisms of origami king, of which there are many more than you stated in the video, with "it's not the Thousand Year Door so you think it sucks."

Even then, let's say hypothetically you are correct. The fact is that the last original game in the series to release without any kind of controversy was the original Thousand Year Door 20 years ago. I think it's perfectly reasonable to ask for a return to the thousand year door's gameplay style, especially since nothing else they've implemented over the years has reached nearly the same Heights.

[drock]

Also just looking at the enemy types

2004: 1000 year demon
2020: A Stapler