E85 flex fuel sensor testing

Robbie McQueen from Wolf Motorsport shows us the pros and cons of using an ethanol flex fuel sensor to tune your car.

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[SadamFlu]

Awesome presentation. Thank you very much for taking the time to do that!

[badlilstang]

I know a lot of cars with stand alone's that run this type of setup to control the tuning.. I haven't seen it fail one yet but this is also the way GM does their flexfuel cars correct? I would have liked to have seen how much water needed to be added before the results got skewed. Also how often does someone get a tank of gas with that much water and they don't realize it by he way the car runs? This is also why we we watch and setup warning lights for Air/Fuel and Knock.

[RGHTBrainDesignDrive]

It would have been nice to know who makes a true ethanol content sensor at the end. ;)

[AznSulja]

great presentation! good to hear someone who knows their stuff

[Gteknik]

The problem lies in that the Flex Fuel Sensor will send a false signal to the ECU. Towards the end of the video he stated that "the detonation factor and power factor hasn't changed." Thus, I believe the solution is to make a fail safe in the ecu to not alter the tune above 85% ethanol.

[waluigiboard]

This is a very good presentation, but where would salt come from? Is it just to demonstrate that they work of conductivity, or that pump gas may contain salt water that could cause a wrong reading

[headsex]

What you're demonstrating is more a limitation of the zetronics unit.
The ethanol sensor outputs 150hz signal when it displays 100% ethanol. When it has water contamination. The flex sensor outputs 170hz, the zetronics obviously has no way of displaying that so the display remains pegged at 100% ethanol.
Sure. A lot of people use the zetronics unit as a analog output to their ecu and cause the exact problem you're demonstrating.
But there is alternative units that don't have this short fall!

[mnv]

based on this i'd say the most important sensors are lambda + knock sensors,
and all is fine as long as the ecu can play the adaptive game.

may be wrong tho?

[DafergoEngineering]

Hi, I bought something labeled as "ethanol content sensor" it is made by continental I believe, does it really measure ethanol %age or hygroscopic %age?
I am a bit lost to be honest and don't find reliable sources for the technology used behind. Great video! thanks!!

[Fileguru]

Thank you for sharing this! especially dangerous with high horsepower boosted engine when your ecu would read the condensed water from your tank as e85 fuel, that would be bye bye engine!! :(

[icuppu]

I clicked like and subscribed. I love your video for its information content and can't wait to see more of them.

My only constructive criticism is that many young and green viewers will try these experiments at home or in their shops, and even trade schools.

I would strongly suggest that you add in your videos the subconsciousness messages of safety. For example, wear clear safety glasses, minor chemical gloves, a fire extinguisher in the background even if it's empty, but most of all, DO NOT run the fuel pump empty of liquid fuel until it is pumping air, especially over liquid fuel with vapors between the running pump and liquid fuel.

Maybe you can later make a video as to how small a spark can ignite a fuel vapor in an open atmosphere with 21% oxygen. In the tank there is no atmospheric oxygen present to ignite with the fuel vapors. Running a fuel pump dry in the tank only eventually kills it from the heat from the lack of cooling of liquid fuel.

That was awesome what you said that a flex fuel sensor is really a hygroscopic sensor that measure the conductivity of electricity. It put it in perspective and opened up a clearer sense of physics at work.

Another suggestion, but mainly question is if you were to show the pin assignments of the connector, the voltages i.e., 5V or 12V, the signal ground to computer, or general ground to vehicle frame, and most importantly what I am searching for, is the signal output digital, or analog and what voltage signal can we expect with E0 compared to E100?

Great video, and clarity of message. Keep up the great work.

[mikeskidmore]

All Disel engines have a good water separator or filter on them ..

[mhillenaar]

I run a Fuel-IT ethanol sensor is that safe or should I be worried?

[sins]

my question about all this is would the sensor reading e100 cause a dangerous situation? the water certainly won't cause detonation the biggest problem would be if the sensor read higher than normal content with lower ethanol content fuel. i.e. typical pump gas with 10% ethanol content reading high.

[bigytv]

What sensor brand does he use in the video? Zeltronics? Would GM / Continental behave differently?

[msgofast]

its maxed the sensor out..what was volts? should have failsafe setup on sensor...

[MrDirtydiggler]

In sum the video demonstrates that a common type of flex fuel sensor can not distinguish between ethanol and water.
No big deal with water in alcohol, the sky is not falling. Ethanol race experience shows around 8% water in the flex mix is ideal, increases torque (cylinder pressure), better than gasoline in terms of emissions and clean burn, runs cooler, etc. Google hydrous ethanol for more.
Stock FFV tune will apply the same blend factor above 80% anyway, ie. FFVs don't actually cater 80%-85% so doesn't matter if e85 is 77% ethanol and 8% water and 15% gasoline.
But 8% water is highly unlikely - more than a gallon of water in a full tank.

[jasaircraft]

so the main problem is contamination with water? i dont see what could be wrong with a little contamination of e85 in your 91pumpfuel... say your sensors picks up a value of 10% then your compensation maps should only increase boost/timing/pulsewidth by a small margin...

[mikeregner]

So what is the flex fuel sensor to get then, if these styles don't work?

[bv]

Good presentation, however I think the % of water added is a bit unrealistic, but does show the drawbacks of the way the sensor works.