Is It Ever OK to Promote Fossil Fuels? Ep186: Rory Sutherland

How can behavioural science and psychology be leveraged to drive meaningful climate action? What unintended consequences might arise from heavy-handed government mandates versus more subtle interventions? And in the face of the climate crisis, is it ethical to actively promote the use of fossil fuels?

UN Secretary General António Guterres certainly doesn’t think so, and has called for fossil fuel advertising to be banned in the same way that tobacco advertising was, due to its adverse impacts on human health.

This week on Cleaning Up, Michael Liebreich welcomes Ogilvy UK Vice-chair Rory Sutherland to explore the role of psychology and behavioural science in tackling the climate challenge. Rather than relying solely on policy, regulations, and technological solutions, Sutherland argues that understanding human decision-making and tapping into our innate psychological drivers could be a catalyst for widespread behaviour change.

From the power of "satisficing" and "psycho-physics" to the importance of signaling and subconscious hacking, Sutherland delves into the forces that shape our environmental choices - both for better and for worse. The conversation also grapples with the quandary of whether actively promoting fossil fuels is justifiable, even as a "messy intermediate phase" in the transition to clean energy.

Leadership Circle:

Links:

Chapters:
00:00 - Intro
02:54 - Is Marketing Evil?
06:05 - Why We Need Marketing
07:54 - Alchemy
09:25 - Making Climate Fun
13:06 - Signalling
17:00 - How to Change Signalling Patterns
18:18 - Subconscious Hacking
21:43 - Satisficing
23:15 - The Problem With Solar
27:19 - Psychophysics
30:10 - Changing Perspectives
33:19 - Selling Public Transport
35:44 - Getting Rid of Cars
38:08 - Taxing Shorthaul Travel
40:20 - Mandates vs Persuasion
43:02 - Working with Fossil Fuel Companies
45:00 - Part of the Solution?
47:00 - Virtue Signalling
49:10 - Imbalanced Debate
55:00 - Is Climate Change Misdirected?
59:00 - Contrarian Gadflies
01:03:58 - Outro

[MarkShapiro-mr]

The story of Churchill and the stolen pepper pot (at 30 minutes) is a gem. "If you portray yourself not as an accuser, but as a fellow offender, you change the dynamic." I imagine admitting: "I've burned coal, oil, and gas every day of my life. I'd like to slow down." Thank you, sirs!

[shrimpanzee]

Think the host talked over Rory too much here. He was 2 steps behind Rory the whole time and there was never enough of a value adding thing he had to say to really justify interrupting him.

[guringai]

It is timely Rory that you all come up with an advertising campaign to reduce (the unnecessary) range anxiety!
Please do that.

[Delchursing]

We don't need fossil fuel marketing in the same way we don't need food marketing. They are used when required.

[AdamCiernicki]

Engaging in conversation is one thing. Hostile PR campaigns, aggressive lobbying with millions spent each year to convince politicians to spend billions of government subsidies (fossil fuel handouts) and proven track of LYING for decades and obfuscation and hiding records countering their own statements- is another think entirely.

So yes, let’s “engage in conversation”

[tommclean]

Rory Sutherland certainly made some interesting point about human psychology but I got the impression that he's not even convinced climate change is even real. His idea about the UK not worrying about reducing its own emissions is laughable. 40% of global emissions come from the countries which each produce less than 2% of the total. Should they all get a free pass too?

[pete_dl]

Rory really didn't want to condemn anti heat pump propaganda, but was worth pushing him on the subject. He does have clarity of thought on many areas.

[morerog]

I need city breaks the place I live has nothing in it and leaving to live somewhere else isn't a choice for me

I also really really like them

[Biggest-dhvr]

Great to see that Rory exists in more than just TikTok clips!

[Der-Anti-AFD-Oberlehrer]

Wie üblich wird wieder mal das Thema klimawandel instrumentalisiert:

Jochem Marotzke: Quo vadis, 1, 5-Grad-Ziel? Deutsches Museum

[winfriedtheis]

Rory makes a really important point about Psychology and Marketing. I pointed this out already in other discussions that there are organisations and people fighting the FUD against new technologies like EVs and heat pumps, but there seems not to be an organisation that is really trying to persuade people by selling the benefits of changes and innovations to the general public! If someone knows of such (an) organisation(s), please answer to this comment and let me know!

[markgemmell]

It was getting more interesting as time went on. Shame it was only an hour long. Can you do anither with Rory with a few hours available please?

[johnparker]

I love it when a podcast host loses control of the interview with Rory and attempts to regain control. It's hilarious because Rory is far more interesting than their agenda and Rory will fufill his part of the pact of being entertaining and informative without their direction.

[SW-lwmt]

I didn't realise the cost of installing solar is so much more in the UK since material costs have come down so much over the years. I"m guessing that installation labor costs are very high.

[thelongame]

“Quick fire round”: one question, 10-minute answer. 😂 Classic RS.

[catherineiselin]

The problem faced by the man on the left is that he seems to react, not to respond.

[SofGdggd-xtlw]

Rory Sutherland uses his self-confidence as a raconteur such that the question is deferred until 43:00. The answer should be a categorical 'no'. Given the tight carbon budgets to meet international agreements and desperate CDR and SRM proposals to be considered to avoid biogeophysical tipping points, it is never acceptable to promote fossil fuels. Encouraging tobacco addiction only harms the individual, yet it is banned. From these answers, it seems we need a ban on fossil fuel advertising, as promoted by Chris Packam's petition.

Besides questioning whether climate change is a fact, and the UK has a responsibility to reach zero pollution, his argument seems to involve the Streisand effect of unintended consequences. The implication of the latter would presumably be either that banning advertising would cause people to seek out (nonexistent) advertising... No, that can't be right. Was he saying that his behavioural interventions would backfire, and so advertising is worse than ineffective?

[robjones]

Exaggeration of climate change impacts may be true of some scientists. The reverse is more dangerous. Climate change communication emphasises averages, not possibilities with quite high likelihoods. Governments often approach flood defence projects using once in 100 year likelihood scenarios. While it’s not a direct analogy, climate risk isn’t being communicated in this way, perhaps because it’s too scary and therefore unpalatable to policy makers.

[DiveSafariNZ]

I could watched another 30+ minutes. Very intersting

[clivegessing-richardson]

The Rory knowledge and creativity certainly shows the host up...good old Rory