Was Women's Submission Just a Curse to Be Overturned? Women in Ministry part 2

There are some REALLY important debates about Genesis 1-3 and what they say about God's ideal for men and women and their relationships. Today I'm going DEEP on those issues. Here's a small sample of what we'll get into:

Does Genesis 1 giving dominion over the Earth to women as well as men mean that egalitarians are right in their contention that no authority differences based on gender should exist?

Does Genesis 2 have indications that before the fall, Adam had a leadership role in his relationship with Eve? Lots of debate on this issue!

Does Genesis 3:16, which says the husband will rule over his wife, actually mean that he will have control of her sexual desires? Dr. Linda Belleville argues for this.

Can we say that male leadership in a marriage is only the result of the fall, and we should therefore try to overturn it as much as possible just like we try to overturn other elements of the curse?

Was Adam a sexless being until after Eve was made? Dr. Phyllis Trible thinks so.

Does Adam show leadership of Eve by giving her a name?

Why is Adam made before Eve?

Why does Satan tempt Eve first?

Why does Adam seem to bear greater responsibility and consequences for the fall?

Was Eve meant to be Adam's "savior" and not his "helper"?

Today's video will be longer than usual, but I'm going to plow through a ton of content and I think it will give you simple clarity at the end, so don't feel overwhelmed by all the issues and debates. I'm going to do my best to make it as clear as I can and help you walk away with solid understanding of the nature of men and women in the image of God and their relationship to each other, both before and after the fall.

Here are some resource links you might be looking for:

You can also find the videos and my notes freely available on my website:

[rachelpeterson]

For all my fellow re-watchers 😊

PART ONE
5:45 Genesis 1 - males and females made in image of God, women are also given dominion over the earth
10:06 Dr Mary Conway (E) on Gen 1:28 - command to have dominion over the earth is given to both men and women (Mike introduces disagreements with view that women must stay home and not work - Titus 2:5, Prov 31 woman, Lydia, Priscilla and Aquila, Luke 8:2-3)

PART 2
18:21 Genesis 2
22:03 Dr Philip Payne (E) - "Bone of my bone identifies shared standing and kinship, not authority" (2 Sam 5:1, Judges 9:2)
27:46 Payne (E) -argues man, not woman, leaves father and mother and joins with his wife
30:27 Payne (E) -argues father and mother share equal authority prior to man leaving to be with his wife. Also points out bad argument that naming humanity "man" connotes male authority.
32:25 intro to Tom Schreiner (C) - 6 reasons he believes Gen 2 supports Adam being in role of leadership over Eve
33:35 Phyllis Trible (E) - argues Adam was an asexual being until Eve was created
41:56 Schreiner point 1 (C) - primogeniture, argues Adam being created first gives more authority over Eve
44:55 egalitarian pushback to first born authority argument...Linda Belleville (E) - speaking of "order and source, not of leadership." Mary Conway(E) - points out multiple times a younger person leads the older in the Bible
51:56 point 2 (C) - Adam was given command not to eat, not Eve
53:08 point 3 (C) - Eve was created as "helper" for Adam vs. (E) -ezer does not have submissive meaning, God as -ezer
1:01:11 Payne (E) - argues -ezer refers to an equal or superior, women as "rescuer of men"
1:07:40 point 4 (C)- Schreiner argues flow of passage indicates Eve was made for Adam, implying Adam has authority over her; (C) Gen 2:23 -Eve was made from man and named by him vs. (E) "name & call" both need to be used, naming is act of discernment not authority, Gen 16:13 Hagar names God, Gen 26:17-21 Isaac names wells and leaves them
1:30:49 Keener (E)- wife's submission is only as a result of the fall as part of the curse

PART 3
1:32:41 - Gen 3
1:36:31 Schreiner point 5 (C) - argues serpent subverted God's pattern of leadership by tempting Eve, holding Adam accountable for both of their sins
1:41:48 Romans 5:19 - (C) Mike argues NT is consistent with saying Adam bears more responsibility for sin even though Eve ate first, Adam's curse applies to all humanity not only men
1:45:12 Payne (E) - points out flawed complementation arguments of "Eve usurping Adam's authority" and "Adam's mistake was letting his wife lead -bc you listened to your wife"
1:47:37 Gen 3:16 - the curse for women "your desire will be for your husband and he will rule over you" Belleville (E) argues Eve's desire is for physical intimacy with her husband.
1:59:44 (E) view that a potential authority differential in marriage is a result of the fall and should not be propagated by churches vs. (C) view that a husband's authority was placed before the fall and the relationship itself was twisted by sin

PS I would def recommend the study notes!!

[Jsalvelez]

“Just because you found a scholar or teacher you like, doesn’t mean you found the truth.” - Mike Winger. 🙌🏼

[charlieisnotmyname]

This subject I have struggled with my whole life. Since having either abuse or neglect from almost all males in my life I have finally found God again through a beautiful Christian man who leads by example. Now I am trying so SO hard not to be rebellious and learning how to be humble and submit which seemed like a mountain of self work and goes against my conditioning.
This topic has both riled me up and put me off a relationship with God and with men. But thank you for diving so deep to carefully explain how those roles are caring and interconnected with love at the core. Hopefully applying this understanding we can better serve each other and our Lord.
God bless

[AlexM-jdwt]

I'm a teenager who came to Christ two years ago and I just want to say thank you so much Pastor Mike for clearing up complex topics and for being willing to go deep into topics with the intent of truth-seeking! As a young lady, the unclear answers on this topic had me concerned about what I can do in ministry, so finding clarity on important topics like this where there's so much confusion is really helpful. Your videos make it easy to understand and you provide good arguments. God is really using you to help a lot of people to find more clarity on biblical topics. All of your videos have been extremely helpful, thank you for putting your bias aside to find what scripture really has to say for itself and for being fair with egalitarian and complementarian views. I'm really excited for the rest of this series!

[billowspillow]

I was re-listening to this back in December the day before we adopted our puppy so I named him Ezer. He's a great helper. Great at waking me up at 5:30 in the morning and making me spend money on vet bills.

[natmichelle]

Thank you so much for covering this. As a millennial woman, this is an area that is really tough for me to wrap my head around. God bless!

[amandacolson]

I’m so thankful for this. I’m a wife, mother, and public school teacher. I don’t think you realize how many “complimentarian” women, like myself, are shedding tears throughout this study.

[ailene_e]

Random but one of my favorite things about Genesis chapter 3 is that God even bothers to seek Adam out and have this conversation with him to find out what happened, as if he didn’t already know lol. I think it’s a great representation of the fact that God values and wants a relationship with us, He seeks us out for that reason. Makes me happy. Once again, thank you for all your hard work and research Mike! This is teaching me so much on how to properly approach the Bible and how to study it properly in general.

[selahr.]

As a marriage counselor… The translation I first studied used the word “longing” for what Eve would feel. I know many use the word “control.” I think in current language we would best understand it as “have wants from.”

Because as a marriage counselor we see the curses in action in every couple… it sounds like this:

“She’s constantly asking me to do more things around the house, and take her out on dates and vacations, and tell her I love her every time I leave the house even if I am just going to the backyard… and she texts all day, and then when I come home from work she wants to tell me all about her day and the drama at work and her friends lives like I care…, she doesn’t realize how tired so am after work, and how fried my brain is, I just want to have some time to play video games or watch football… or go out with the guys sometimes to golf. But she gets mad at me that I’m not giving her all my free time. I just need space, she’s got to figure out how to have her own life sometimes!”

And then the wife complains “All he really cares about is work. Then he comes home and just disappears into his stupid video games. He says he needs quiet time. Well what about me and what I need! Why won’t he tell me about his day? Why can’t I go with him when he goes to see his friends sometimes? Now he turns his phone off when they golf so I can’t even check up on him to see how it’s going or when he might be home. It’s not asking too much to know where he’s going and when he’ll be back. And then yesterday I came to bed wearing a pretty new nightgown and he didn’t even notice. It really hurt my feelings. He doesn’t say I’m pretty anymore. I’m afraid he’s going to find someone else.”

She wants him to be her husband, her partner, her helper, her best friend, her playmate, her comforter, her protector, her sense of emotional security, her source of affirmation, and usually a substantial part of her purpose in life or sense of belonging… he is her home.

He works hard to be as much of that as he can, but he carries a lot of stress, and he faces a lot of burnout… and the one thing he craves (space/time away from her wants) puts more tension between them even when he does not want or intend for it to do so. He “rules over” her and her wants (and sometimes over her emotions, self-esteem, and her sense of safety in the world and in the relationship) when he has to say no to (or not do) something she’s asking/wanting from him.

Just like the ground has become harder to work after the fall, the ground of our relationship becomes harder to work.

[victoria]

This was the most respectful, most thorough handling of this issue I have heard yet. You even changed my mind on a couple of points I had previously held without question.

[daverogg]

Because you don’t teach like some boring professors, yet with authority, and you make it fun and so informatively interesting, even an uneducated geezer like myself can understand it. I’m really enjoying this and looking forward to all the remaining videos. Thank you, Mike, so much for the work you’re putting into this topic!!!

[dudestoneking]

i love your extended videos . i treat them like a bible study, stop the video to look up passages, write my own notes and so on.

[Particularly_John_Gill]

I’m only 15 minutes and I can tell this series is going to really influence my views on this topic. Thank you for doing so much research into this for the lay person.

[sambothebeast]

“Don’t come against farming, come against thorns and thistles” beautifully summarised 👏 ❤

[MrJbaker]

I love the deepness of study and all the scriptures used, I will have to listen to this again. thank you such much for all your hard work.

[robinette]

Just finished the video. VERY well done. I am learning so much through this series! Thank you, Pastor Mike for your thorough treatment of the topic. 🙌🏼🙌🏼❤️

[steevo]

Incredible THOUGHTFUL treatment of such an emotionally volatile issue. The struggle seems to always be the ring of power... But biblically 'authority' is not necessarily control... But fearful responsibility. Thank you Mike for your work. It is so very helpful.

[martinupchurch]

Wow that was a lot to sit through... thanks for taking the time to go through all the details looking forward to more.

[Mojo]

Wow how awesome 1:57:20 ish " sin crouching at the door. Its desire is contrary to you, but you must rule over it." I must have read these words upwards of a hundred times but today it has been made brighter, thank you Mike for your research and work in this ministry. God bless you brother.

[robmaclean]

Thank you Mike for doing all the research for these videos. I am a pastor and have tried to labour through this before, but have not yet been able to do a deep dive like you have. I’m learning a lot, and I am only on the second video. So thanks again!