Levin Λ Friston Λ Fields: 'Meta' Hard Problem of Consciousness

Karl Friston, Michael Levin, and Chris Field sit down for an epochal conversation on cognition and consciousness.

CORRECTION:
- Chris Fields emailed me the following: "I referred to Peter Strawson when I meant to refer to his son, Galen Strawson, who has done the work on panpsychism."

LINKS MENTIONED:

TIMESTAMPS:
00:00:00 Introduction
00:03:20 Michael Levin answers: "What do you respect about Chris / Karl?"
00:04:45 Chris Fields answers: "What do you respect about Michael / Karl?"
00:05:45 Karl Friston answers: "What do you respect about Chris / Michael?"
00:07:46 Self organization / Autopoiesis / Why does life form?
00:12:11 How does cognition emerge from smaller parts?
00:14:18 Why do we see "things" independent from one another? Why in space / time?
00:18:40 Relationship between cognition and consciousness
00:22:03 The Meta Hard Problem
00:30:37 Why is complexity associated with "awareness"?
00:35:56 Is society one large brain, with each person acting as a neuron?
00:44:17 Duality between: Did you act on the world? Or did the world act on you?
00:51:32 Babbling, and becoming a "self"
01:11:22 "300 milliseconds" is a special unit of time for consciousness
01:15:49 Quantum Babbling
01:21:49 The difference between "randomness" and "quantum randomness"
01:30:03 The difference between "external" and "internal" are both real and illusory
01:33:41 Studying consciousness / the self and the concomitant existential dread
01:48:19 Michael Levin: "Something important goes all the way down"
01:51:12 Science starts with faith

[uhohspaghettiohss]

This is the future. THE FUTURE. Exchanges like these, and the public dissemination thereof, will change the world. We have millions of scientists and thinkers in the world. They just don't have the time and resources to explore. This provides them the opportunity. Finally some of the awesome potential of the internet is being realized. Just imagine a network of institutional and independent thinkers working in tandem. The possibility is endless. Bravo Curt.

[deadcentre-retro-meaningma]

There is an irony to the fact that you have been personally destabilised by these topics, and yet you put out some of the most wholesome, nurturing, pleasant content I’ve ever watched on any topic. Great discussion.

[jonpicojones]

What an enthralling discussion. Thank you SO much Curt for bringing us content that truly cannot be found anywhere else. Your channel has introduced me to some of the most profound thinkers and conversation, truly underrated and a gem.

[plinpain]

This one was a banger. Had a 2 hour conversation before i listened to this and it was spooky how many cross thoughts got spoken. Yay, to a new era

[CognizantApe]

Damn Curt. I can't get over how valuable your content is, seriously.
All of the praise in the comments toward you and your guest is beyond deserved.
⚡
There are other channels I value on this platform but I couldn't be more excited for a new conversation to listen to than I am when I see you've uploaded a new one.
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Your channel is my favorite town square for physics, consciousness and cutting edge sciences.
⚡

[rogermarks]

One of your all-time greatest episodes. Lookin' forward to more "Season 2" content.

Hope you're doing well Curt.

[imthemoeron]

I appreciate your content Curt. Thank you. It can be difficult to find "heavy" content that isn't all

[starxcrossed]

Oh my god the most brilliant minds talking in one session- I can’t believe it. They’re discussing all the biggest ideas I’ve ever tried to understand. The biggest one being cognition at scale.

[starxcrossed]

Man. I love Chris Fields so much. I’m so happy you got him on here. He speaks in such an easy way to understand and visually internalize, and illustrates some profound insights. Thank you for bringing him to your audience!

[kwan]

From a Toaist perspective, this conversation is perhaps a perfect demonstration of WuWei (non-action literally, or non-action action by some estimations) through language, logic, and most important of all, embodiments. No wonder it flows with such grace and elegance to the depth, taking us along for an illuminating ride. Thank you!

[timb]

The problem with these terms ... cognition, awareness, conception, consciousness...etc. etc....is that there does not even begin to be anything remotely resembling a definitive quantitative representation for a single on of them...or the capacity to create one! We simply do not know the dimensions of our own existence and experience to any precise degree...EXCEPT experientially...which is exactly why the activity of philosophical inquiry is so critical. That...is the ONLY way to explicitly encounter the True dimensions of these phenomena. Scientifically and empirically...we are essentially in the middle ages when it comes to these issues.

[JustinHedge]

very much looking forward to this new season of content, as you have a demonstrated history of excellent guests and topics.

[timb]

Like Michael said..."what form / experience does the answer come in?...poems...art...etc. etc." There does not even begin to be any resolution to this fundamental question (except, of course, for those who already know what it is...and they ain't talking).

[gloriaharbin]

This was such an exciting and stimulating discussion. …just simply wonderful to be able to hear great minds (and people) share and explore these ideas. Thank you Curt for your vision in bringing this to us.

[askingEveryone]

32:20 is exactly the point that I've been trying to voice (even here on TOE). Moreover the transition from "0" to "1" ("no awareness"/"has awareness") is unnatural; it's where the graph of awareness as a function of time (in whatever units of awareness, if there are any) has a break - at least in its second derivative (zero/nonzero). If it's really "0"/"1", then the break is in the function itself.

[E______]

Life is a circumambulating defragmentation that is eternal and infinite. If one had to explain it simply. When we talk to each other with love things get better.

[Paul_Marek]

I felt a literal expansion of my consciousness while watching this. Thx Kurt et. al.

[PharadayKage]

I don’t think I’ll ever think about Babylon and the Tower of Babel in quite the same way again ….

What a privilege to be able to listen and watch this conversation unfold. Thank you Curt, this was just outstanding.

[haniamritdas]

I think I am down mostly on the Taoist side of the argument at this point. The problem with being exhaustive is that one becomes exhausted, even discussing addition. Or rather, attempting to demonstrate addition. Impossible to exhaustively demonstrate, easy to describe and experience. That, I think, is a functional understanding of consciousness.

As a religious question, wanting to grasp this level of total understanding, a reproducible description of a consciousness, merely represents the end state of grasping consciousness itself, which is never satisfied and never gains the level of control being sought.

From a philosophical point of view, we are just monkeys pointing at phenomena and jabbering at each other. But it does have some entertainment value. Monkeys are funny.

But really, consciousness is a great mysterious gift. Trying to mine it for value is a bit like dissecting the goose with golden eggs to learn its secrets. Then you realize, life itself is the secret, which only makes sense when you know it from the inside out, not "scientifically". Objective conscious appears lifeless in itself...

[danlogan]

What a fantastic discussion! “Curiosity all the way down”…and it seams like at every level the question being asked is “Who am I? What is my place in the world?, What is the difference between me and whatever else there is?”