The Consistent Calvinist Deflowers Jeremiah 19:5, 32:35

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In this #CCShort Collin addresses the most abused text from the #Provisionist side, Jeremiah 19:5. He points out Leighton’s dishonesty of using it to attack #Calvinism then he gives a Consistent understanding in light of the contextual meaning of the word “Spoke”…

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Good points! The LSB also says "...nor did it ever come upon My heart, " I think this is helpful because God's disposition is grieved with evil. Translations that say "...nor did it come into my mind, " ppl abuse to hint at God not being Omniscient.

TheApologeticDog

I tell people that even tho those things were horrific, God can lessen the pain suffered by the babies if he wants. Just like Shadrach, abednego, St Stephen etc. !

Hesheli

what's the "it" in this verse? is it the burning that God hadn't considered, or was it commanding the burning that God hadn't considered?

sola_powered

Jeremia 19:5 read something I have never commanded or mentioned; I never entertained the thought. CSB

redfritz

You realize the ESV is the go to Calvinist translation so he’s using that to honor the Calvinist go to scripture, right?

codysmith

If you look back in Deuteronomy, you see that God commanded the Israelites to offer they’re first born. It was a specific thing he commanded them to do in a specific way.

But the Israelites messed it up. They married into the pagans and adopted their pagan ceremonies. One of them being sacrificing the firstborn in Tophet.

So in Jeremiah when God said this is not what I commanded, he’s referring back to what he told them back then. What they are doing now is not what he commanded them before. It wasn’t even what was in his mind when he commanded it back in Deuteronomy.

Flowers doesn’t know his Bible. He’s a ConMan.

aletheia

Jeremiah 19:5 (ESV)
and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or decree, nor did it come into my mind.

Ppl like Leighton Flowers from the freewill side will only quote Jer 19:5 from the ESV, because it is the only version that uses the word “decree” (see above). Other versions use the word “spoke:. E.g.:

Jeremiah 19:5 (NASB)
5 and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal, a thing which I never commanded or spoke of, nor did it ever enter My mind;

The word “decree” can mean to “speak”, as the king gave a command”. This is not the same context or meaning as when Calvinist talk about God determining everything or decreeing something happen. In English, the word decree can mean to speak, but it can also mean to determine. Freewillers are being dishonest when they use Jer 19:5 from the ESV, which says that God never decreed the burning of children, to then conflate that with Calvinism, which says that God determines all things, to try and prove that God doesn’t sovereignly determine all things.

Jer 19:5 is not saying that God did not determine that the burning of the children take place. This verse is saying God did not speak or command the Israelites to burn their children. The Hebrew word the ESV uses for “decree”, “dabar”, is used 73 times in the OT, and it always means “to speak”.

Calvinist do say that God does “determine” all things, as outlined in:

Hebrews 1:3 (CSB)
3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact expression of his nature, sustaining all things by his powerful word.

This means God is choosing to use his power to sustain all things, moment by moment, incl the terrible ppl burning the children in Jer 19:5, and the children being burnt in Jer 19:5. This means God caused these things to take place from a transcendent position. These terrible things could not have come to pass if God had not chosen to bring them to pass from a transcendent position. Freewillers can’t answer how Heb 1:3 and Jer 19:5 can both be true at the same time.

Both Calvinists and non-Calvinist need to take serious Heb 1:3, Acts 17:28 & Col 1:17 and commit them to memory.

davidrogers

Hi Josh. Please note the spelling mistake in heading "Jeremiah"

Jeremiah 19:5 (NASB)
5 and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal, a thing which I never commanded or spoke of, nor did it ever enter My mind;

Does this verse mean that God never spoke a command, like giving a law for Israelites saying they should burn their children - that such a terrible thing would never enter God's mind so to speak?

davidrogers