Orthodoxy & Baptism, Pt . 1 - Fr. Josiah Trenham

In this episode, Father Josiah Trenham discusses the Orthodox Christian understanding of the mystery (sacrament) of baptism.
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This is the fifth episode from my interview with Orthodox Archpriest, theologian, author, publisher, and podcaster, Fr. Josiah Trenham. Fr. Josiah is pastor of St. Andrew Orthodox Church in Riverside, CA. He received his PhD in Theology from the University of Durham, is founder and director of Patristic Nectar Publications, and is a prolific podcaster and author.

A shout out to The Collective Wisdom Project community for crowdsourcing the questions for this interview!

To learn more about Fr. Josiah's work...

Patristic Nectar Publications

The Arena Podcast

St. Andrew Orthodox Church

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[ProtectingVeil]

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[FatherAndTeacherTV]

Always appreciative of what is posted on this channel.

[Insectoidoverlords]

One month to late. Got baptized last month! ☦️☦️☦️

[timothyhoneycutt]

There is so much wisdom here and so many would be blessed to heed his words. I do not wish to take away from Fr. Josiah's words, only to offer two additional comments for consideration:

When it comes to determining how a person or a group of people will be received into the Church, it is certainly the diocesan bishop's decision. However, as Fr. Josiah I believe alluded to, we cannot make economia the new akrivia. Ultimately, bishops, priests, and laymen are called to follow the saints. We learn what is Orthodox from them. When we look at the saints who looked at this issue in detail and attempted to offer a patristic view, we see they said that almost all converts should be received by baptism. Sprinkling, pouring, and single immersion are not examples of the patristic form of three immersions, showing forth the death and resurrection of the convert into Christ. All of us must follow the saints.

Also, a note of historical correction: St. John Maximovitch did not receive Fr. Seraphim Rose into the Church. St. John arrived in San Francisco in 1963, a year after Fr. Seraphim was received into the Church in 1962. Fr. Seraphim was received by Fr. Nicholas Dombrovsky.

For those interested, Fr. Seraphim baptized everyone he received into the Church, as Fr. Damascene writes in the biography of Fr. Seraphim Rose: "At the time Eugene was received into the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad, those formerly baptized into non-Orthodox Christian confessions (Protestants, Anglicans, and Catholics) were routinely received into this Church through Chrismation only, rather than through both Baptism and Chrismation. In 1971, the Sobor (Bishop’s Council) of the Church Abroad ruled that it was permissible to baptize those coming from non-Orthodox confessions. When Eugene became a priest in the Church Abroad six years later, he baptized all the people whom he received into the Church, including those formerly baptized into non-Orthodox confessions."

[AwesomeWholesome]

Just had a discussion with protestants about the concept of born again yesterday. This video came at the perfect time.

[vsevolodtokarev]

Father, how comes you didn't give us a blessing before beginning? It's the best part.

[orthodoxboomergrandma]

People are begging for baptism and being told no. His argument about the plug and how it would fall apart if you unplug it and plug it into a properly functioning outlet is not applicable to the folks who would have wanted baptism in the fully Orthodox manner. They were denied it but were ignorant at the time and didn’t know to press for it like I did after an infant RC pouring baptism…

[fr.davidwooten]

A very balanced and thorough discussion about reception of converts, with the one qualification that reception by chrismation is not “oikonomia“ when it is actually called for *instead of* baptism. Otherwise, well done.

[Orthodoxy.Memorize.Scripture]

I’m going to be seeking corrective baptism.

[jonathanpeterrunyon]

Great video and very well said. I would like to add that the word "economy" as it is used in the Church does not mean "allowance" or "dispensation." The word "economy" is a composite of two Greek words: οἶκος (ee-kose, a house or dwelling) and νόμος (nomos, a rule or the law). This word was first used in the Canons of the Church and refers to the "rules of the house" with the house being the Church. When we apply the economy of the Chruch, we are following the κανών (canon, a rule or guideline) of the Church. What is the "rule" that we follow? Well, it is Jesus Christ. The Church as the Body of Christ does what Christ does. It does not operate in contradiction or independently of Christ. What is Christ doing? Christ is literally the savior of the world. So, the "house rule" of the Church is to save the world with Christ. Economy is not the exception to the rule, it is the rule of the house.

[karena.]

Latin ‘Baptism’ is a simple pouring of water over the forehead three times. There is no triple immersion.

[MicahMarshallTruth]

Fr. Josiah. There are many things said about Orthodox baptism and how baptism must be performed. What do you make of this excerpt from The Didache which says pouring water over the head 3 times in the name of the Holy Trinity is an acceptable form of Baptism in the absence of cold running water?

Baptism
“7.1 And concerning baptism, baptize in this way: having reviewed all of these things, baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, ' in running water. ≥ But if you do not have access to running water, baptize in other water. And if you are not able to baptize with cold water, then baptize with warm water. 3 But if you possess neither, pour water on the head three times, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. 4 And before the baptism the baptizer should fast before-hand, and the one being baptized and any others who are able. Call upon the one being baptized to fast beforehand for one or two days.”

[St_Augustines_Cry]

As a Seminarian, I can share that there has been discussion over this rebaptism question coming from a non-canonical group very early on, however overall the Church has not always re-baptized. St. Cyprian if Carthage believed that there is no grace at all working in a schismatic group, this is not what we teach as Orthodox. I believe he was incorrect and greatly so, but Cyprian view is very strong. Augustine actually along with Pope Leo of Rome taught ademently it is possible three could be a valid baptism outside the canonical church, take Oriental groups for instance. Ok historically bottom line is the Church has taken the Augustine view. It may be surprising that the Orthodox Church baptism is almost identical to the traditional, Roman Rite Western Baptism. This is why a Catholic is typically not rebaptized. Yes I agree that Fr. Josiah to reject this light 🕯️ switch on off approach. But I don't think you do wrong if you choose to be rebaptized because another consideration is who does the baptism, not only the form. As a Lutheran I was baptized as an infant and was given a choice. I chose to be rebaptized because I wanted the church to baptize me, an Orthodox priest and that was important to me. I don't agree with Fr. Josiah that we can say for certain the other Church specifically the Catholic or Oriental do not have sacraments. We don't know. It is possible since there churches founded by the Apostles. Reformed churches I think it's safe to say they do not have real communion etc. but I think Catholics did at least for some time and the Oriental I think they do but that is my opinion I can't say for certain about Catholics and Orientals. Again to support what I'm saying but know a Catholic priest who becomes Orthodox and they want to make him an Orthodox priest he is not reordained! Most Catholics and Orientals are not rebaptized... Think of these implications. Is this Cyprian? Nope.

[christopheraaronbaker]

“We know where the Holy Spirit is we Don’t know where the Holy Spirit is not.”

[Alex-gxmb]

There is only one Baptism that is in the Orthodox Church. It is the Normal way to enter the Church.

[benjaminplackemeier]

I grew up in a Baptist Christian family and never have I been baptized into the faith. Where would this put me in becoming orthodoxy? I feel like doing so carries more authenticity.

[minisinthehallshorts]

what about Eastern Catholics who received Baptism and Chrismation would they need to be re chrismation?

[stevobear]

We were brought in to the church in 98 without being rebaptized, we were willing to do whatever and told no. Do we now not trust our Bishop and Priest guidance or not??? If I can not trust them in this for these last 25 yrs, what else can I not trust them in???

[christmyking]

So I do not have an orthodox church I can get to I believe in orthodox christianity, I have been baptised as a born again christian am I saved I have had visions from the lord he saved me from addiction by actually appearing to me does this not mean I am actually saved ?

[ram_bam]

What a song is played at the end? It filled me with peace.