System Driven Level Design (My Biggest Mistake)

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Description: In this video I discuss System Driven Level Design, a valuable concept to help those looking to create games, specifically platformers, dungeon crawlers and level-map-centric games.

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I hope others in the community can benefit from this video. Likes are appreciated! <3

LostRelicGames
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This is why greyboxing is so important. Don’t make a nice looking level right off the bat. Grey box it while you’re still developing the systems, it makes iterating quick, and you can easily test it within the level environment and context, it just lacks the polish.

SpiffyCS
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I'm reminded of an interview with the devs of Mario 64. They said that, before making any levels or really anything else, they nailed down Mario's movement. Because once they got that figured out they could tailor the rest of the game to him. It's a mindset I want to keep in mind when making my games. Get the basic systems made, then worry about the levels.

CliffDiverBOA
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Systems first, testing using a prototype area. Especially if your game is precision platformer! 

Not sure if the pain of game dev is always the good kind!

owdoogames
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Always try to make a MVP - Minimal Valuable Product - asap to test all the systems and iterate over it (more) peacefully.

swalscha
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The timing of this video is perfect. 😊 I'm about to make my levels. 😅

My level design always ties to my game Lore. It will be easier to make them when you have set of rules made by your lore. Same goes with my characters.

blackcitadelstudios
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A few years ago, I learned about the concept of a "vertical slice" - a small version of your game that you create with very little, very focused, content. All the systems, mechanics, core loops, and interfaces are polished to near completion, tested with one another with only a minimal set of content. Only when your vertical slice "feels good", do you move on with building out further content. It serves a couple purposes: it gives you a polished product to show off and discuss, it allows you to test the core functionality of your game to make sure it's enjoyable, and it forces you to focus on what really matters in the game - how the combination of systems and loops makes the player feel. It's very similar to your approach, and for me as a solo hobbyist, it forces me to stay focused and productive. It was a game changer... pun intended! :D

GD-ohpe
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In my developer life I was always the guy that was given the code no one wanted to attempt. In the various stages I was writing the main code everyone else needed. So I saw very early on what you learned the hard way. So now I am starting my game studio and my first game. First thing I did was open up a journal and begin my game design document. Just the high level stuff at first. Then I wanted to build one island in the ocean but realized I needed the subsystems first. So now I am writing the inventory system that includes a method to determine if an item is in inventory and how much. The framework for the crafting system which used the inventory system method quite a lot. Then I realized the inventory needed to have a variable size since everything in the world had an inventory. Some day I'll build that island, but I need the backend code no one wants to write ready for use!

michaeleber
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One example is setting up a level with platforms to jump to, later you decide you want to change the player speed for one reason or another. Now the level needs re-work. Just do the content building last, as hard as it is resist it will always save massive amounts of time.

TegridyMadeGames
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This goes along well with something I heard one of the designers of Super Meat Boy say, and it's so true. They basically said it's important to have a goal first, like "what am I trying to teach the player here?". From there designing around that goal. The example they gave was introducing a new mechanic the player can do (eg. running, and by extension jumping further). You might start simple and have a large gap to jump, but later you mix it with other enemies. The key being the mechanics are coming first and the level shape and design accommodates the use of those mechanics. Excellent advice

ShaneMoscrop-yogi
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Thanks for the share. Glad to hear you found the light! Heh.. there is a GDC talk I recommend to my non game design friends about overcoming cursed game design elements. But you found your own way of dealing with some of it. Similarly I am focusing on the gameplay mechanics & building out from there, mostly. You already experienced with map making (same here) so you can better design maps that highlight the befits for players to choose the shortcuts you give them. Really the part where you mentioned enemies & spacing, players perception of fairness, & using stand-in minimalist enemies to see how they fit they map & player mechanics - prior to fleshing out the enemies animations & mechanics. These are tips I don't see very often but to me they work well for prototyping player & enemy interactions (mostly) first & then afterwards making a stronger version of the map I already had in mind. Except when I do it this way, I'm thinking about how the map art, items, & enemy placements (+ bonuses) can compliment one or more optional styles for the player to choose to play. But as you said, it's not entirely linear, I also will think of possible map designs & what type of enemies would be fun for "those types of levels". I think it's good to think of game design from as many angles as is constructive. My project is slow tho, as a forewarning, albeit I'd blame it more on my terrible luck with PCs dying (also inherited an intermittent long term memory issue) & shoestring budget haha.. but new one in the mail & I'm determined to see it release if it's in my power to continue. Thanks again! Take care~

VertegrezNox
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A major part of the reason why gamedev takes for ever is because of not really knowing what we want up front and change the system multiple time. One change in the system is never has so much consequence on level design, side effect, making another system irrelevant ...

vulkanosaure
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I remember seeing this level design trick on a video some while ago, and since then I've been developing my levels just like this. It makes level design so much easier

ghabrielF
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Thank you, John, for that is a greatly important topic that you've brought up. When I started to my make my own game, the very first thing that I did was a document describing all of the important game mechanics, so that later on I could easily block out a map based upon those said mechanics. And it did help tremendously! I also liked your phrase: "...level is a vehicle to carry the player from one system to the next.", never thought of that, smart!
Additionally, I would like to thank you for... introducing? me to the "No Zero Days" strategy. Ever since that video, I've implemented this tactic in my life flow and it did absolute wonders! Step-by-step, my dream is coming true and I finally feel like I am doing something right in my life.
As a final note, John, I wish you well with your creative endeavors and I am excited to see and play your game (which is, of course, wishlisted!)

moonchaser
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So relatable. I love the way you described how you had been thinking about making the level, and then sprinkling in the mechanics. I was thinking the same thing at first. Fortunately my workflow is much better now 😅, but this video is reassuring. Thanks.

goodpuppii
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I shudder to think how difficult Elden Ring must've been to make, in terms of level vs system design, really educational video, thanks.

MohseenLala
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Love it, thanks for making a series about this. Too often I find that there is very little content about ACTUAL game development, especially for 2D side-scroller types. I am currently designing an action platformer and these types of discussions are exactly what is needed to get into the nitty gritty. I joined the Discord, hopefully Ill get to chat with you about some theories and ideas. Great work keep it up!

NZMPlays
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This video was insightful. I still got a while to go before I make some levels for my game, but thinking about and designing the systems first makes sense. Your videos have helped me a lot. Thanks for the great content.

smallocelot
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Great advice! Seems my initial thinking was good since I was going for systems and scripting before overall design.. but dont forget, like Johns says, level design and design in general is fun and its probably important to get some graphics and design in early as it will increase the "fun" of it all :)

Happy grinding y´all!!

gustavjosefsson
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Very insightful video John, thanks. I experienced this myself in early development where I had a level with a jumping puzzle that required precise movements from the player. The distance between platforms was carefully measured to make sure the player could not cheese it. But then some time later I discovered a bug in the player's movement code that was so fun that I converted it into a feature I call "gravity jumping", which basically allows the player jump massive distances that now completely trivialized those previous jumping puzzles. Thankfully I had only created that one level at the time, so I didn't have to redesign much.

synchaoz