A Christian View of War - Douglas Wilson

[slimpickens]

Excellent content! That was very helpful for me personally. Is there any chance you gents could post that part two soon?

[chrismatthews]

This is good stuff. Even though I disagree with Pastor Wilson on a lot of things, you just dont hear most Pastors dealing with these kinds of issues. I guess God has a purpose for postmillinials after all. Just Kidding

[amandadewoody]

Would y'all be able to direct me to the obedience experiments were mentioned around the 40 min mark? I can't find references to Miligan Experiment variations that specifically look at Christian participants but I'd love to see them!

[JohnJakeWilliam]

With love, faith comes by hearing God's word (Romans 10:17). And let us all come into the unity of faith (Ephesians 4).

1. Is the American government worldly or part of God's kingdom?
-- Jesus says, "They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. Sanctify them by Your truth" (John 17:16-17).
-- In the Hebrew language, the word "NATIONS" is identical with the word heathen -- Psalm 96:5; Psalm 2:1.

2. What are the weapons that Christians should use on their enemies?
-- "For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God" (2 Corinthians 10:4).

3. With love, should we give our enemies food and water, or should we kill them?
-- "Let love be without hypocrisy [play-acting]. ... Repay NO ONE evil for evil. ... If your enemy is hungry, feed him; If he is thirsty, give him a drink ..." (Rom. 12:9-21).

4. I now have been born from above -- a new birth brings new citizenship. Where is our new citizenship?
-- "For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ" (Philippians 3:20).
-- Are there Christians in this nation? Yes, but ... Biblically, we belong to a kingdom, not a nation.

-- Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world: if My kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight ... BUT now My kingdom is not from here?

5. What kind of mind are we to have?
-- The mind of Christ (Eph. 2:5).

6. Do the Old Testament Wars come into play, NOW?
-- Jesus says, "You have said, an eye for an eye ... BUT I tell you NOT to resist an evil person" (Matthew 38-48). Because ...
--"The wrath of man does not work the righteousness of God" (James 1:20).

The work of the Gospel is to make peace between men and God--not war. Wherever a heart surrenders to God the spirit of militarism and nationalism must go (June 21, 1898). The person who believes that the voice of the people is the voice of God may want to reconsider:

"And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb ... they loved not their lives unto death" (Rev. 12:11).

7. Does God regard it as less sinful to kill a thousand men than to kill one?
-- "Though they join forces, the wicked shall not be unpunished; but the posterity of the righteous will be delivered" (Proverbs 11:21).

blessings, John

[peterpitsenburger]

It would be nice to have some notes or a link to some notes.


The right to go to war (Jus Ad Bellum)

The right to go to war concerns the justification that a nation must give in order for it to have a moral right to wage war on another. Augustine laid the basis for four main criteria:
1. Just Authority - is the decision to go to war based on a legitimate political and legal process?
2. Just Cause - has a wrong been committed to which war is the appropriate response?
3. Right Intention - is the response proportional to the cause? i.e. is the war action limited to righting the wrong, and no further. When people speak of "mission creep, " this condition is the relevant concern.
4. Last Resort - has every other means of righting the wrong been attempted sincerely so that no other option but war remains?


The right sorts of conduct in war (Jus In Bello)

The conduct of war is clearly a matter of moral concern. Even when a nation is justified in waging war on another, there are moral limits on what it may do in prosecuting the war. Defining and enforcing such limits has been a long a concern for international agreement and law.
1. Proportionality - The proportionality of the use of force in a war. The degree of allowable force used in the war must be measured against the force required to correct the Just cause and limited by Just Intention (see Jus Ad Bellum).
2. Discrimination -The combatants discriminate between combatants and noncombatants. Innocent, nonmilitary people should never be made the target of attacks.
3. Responsibility - A country is not responsible for unexpected side effects of its military activity as long as the following three conditions are met:
(a) The action must carry the intention to produce good consequences.
(b) The bad effects were not intended.
(c) The good of the war must outweigh the damage done by it.

[fernandogallardo]

Is God against serving in the military, or in law enforcement? No

Is God against serving idols? YES

Is the flag made of images, in the likeness of the stars of heaven? YES

Is the star spangled an image of heaven? YES

Is the star spangled the god of the US? YES

Is the pledge of allegiance to the flag, or anthem, idolatry? YES

Is it idolatry to serve images, or symbols? YES

Did the founding fathers set the images of the stars of heaven in the flag? YES

Is it required in the military, or in law enforcement to pledge allegiance to the flag and anthem? YES

Is the flag a statue of fabric, high and lifted up on a flag pole? YES

Will God share His glory with the star spangled of heaven? NO

Is the kingdom of God of this world? NO
Is the liberty of God of this world? NO
Is the weapons of God of this world? NO

[jrwc]

ill be the first to say we should have never been in Vietnam

[jrwc]

we got a big head after ww2. I think we started playing God possibly

[acem]

1. 11:00 yes, God decided sometimes when Israel went to war. If it was all times, it certainly wasn't recorded, from the times after Joshua died until the end of the Southern Kingdom. The Judges went to war often without recorded orders (most of the time it seems God blessed this), and the Kings (even David) also went to war without recorded orders. It looks like the Kings were predicted to war even more often, see 1 Samuel 8.
2. 23:02 is wrong, or the term "competent authority" must be so broad as to approach meaninglessness. Abram did it against 4 kings to save Lot. If anyone was the "competent authority", it was the victorious kings, and Abram warred with them, won, and was blessed by God for it.
3. 23:27 is wrong, Abram just went and did it, no peaceful means noted.
4. 23:50 was the UN a competent authority in 1950 for Korea?
5. Speaking of #3, when has the government (the State) ever been competent?
6. 24:01 Why isn't the State of Idaho a competent authority? What about the State of Texas? What about the Republic of Texas?
7. 31:34 "Military service is in itself lawful". Woah, wait a minute! You just said that one must ensure that the war is just first. The "competent authority" (the State) doesn't care at all about that, it just does it anyhow. If one were to enlist in the military of that State, which is to say sign a paper to make yourself an involuntary servant, which is to say you're now one definition of a slave, then you have no choice but to follow your orders into that unjust war (which is evil) or suffer criminal penalties, even up to death. There is much to be said as to why Christians didn't enlist in the Roman military (though they could remain if they were converted there, 1 Corinthians 7:20-24). After all, read 1 Corinthians 7:23 again, "You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of men." This is a direct command. Don't get mad at me, I'm just reporting the news. Note again, we are to "render unto Caesar" like the early Christians did (and see Romans 13), but we are actually struggling against the world, and the State (Ephesians 6:12).
8. 34:14 Yes, the Bible doesn't require us all to be Theologians. He tells us not to murder, assault people, or steal. The *only* reason military service in a war allows someone to kill another, other than in simple self-defense (and that's rarely simple in war) is because the other side is protecting someone from due justice, in other words, that the war is *actually* just. So, if you join an unjust war, even in ignorance, and kill another person, you've committed murder, under almost all circumstances. Now, if you just didn't know any better, that's not as bad as if you did know better, but *you are still guilty of murder*, and you deserve death, Genesis 9:6. The State's declaration of war isn't a magic spell that releases you from your guilt. You are now, and always, responsible for what you do, even if ordered to, even if threatened, even if everyone else thinks it's a good idea.
9. Given #8, can you see why the early Christians wouldn't join the Roman military?
10. 39:59 Given all of this, it's a *good* thing that Christians are realizing that enslaving themselves to the State by signing on the dotted line is a bad idea. After all, my Master once said, "No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other." Matthew 6:24a. Swearing by God's name that you will do everything someone else tells you to do is a foolish thing indeed! If (when) they tell you to do something immoral, now you have the choice of defying God or defying your oath to God (and suffering some Earthly punishment). Why would you put yourself in that situation?
11. 44:14 No! We *do* want every man to do what is right in his own eyes! So many control-freak, past-worshiping conservatives look at the book of Judges and see the verses that say that and think that means they were doing much evil. Well, yes, many were, but *that's what God planned!* Read 1 Samuel 8 again. You see, God was Israel's King, and his preferred method of governance was *not* an Earthly King, but a temporary Judge appointed by him (apparently through the people). God said Israel's demand of a King disobedience that would result in theft, warfare, and slavery of his people. So, although the people in the times of the Judges did do much evil, God preferred that, because he could punish it as he saw fit (and he did). That was his plan, and stop telling God that he was wrong!
12. 47:45 Look at how God has Israel call up their men for war (Deuteronomy 20). If anyone had a new house, a new vineyard, or a new wife, they could go home. And look at the last exception, if anyone was afraid. Well, you'd be a fool not to be. It's not a sin to refuse military service, period. Quit telling people that refusing military service is a sin!
13. 49:16 Shots fired at Joan of Arc. That being said, I have no Biblical precedent here, so that's a fair opinion.
14. 53:20 Most Christians miss that they were judged by the Lord because they were on God's land and were defiling it (their child sacrifice being at least some part of it). They were squatters. If you'll read all the verses saying the Lord "drove them out" of the land (not killed them all), you'll realize that God's plan was to get these heathens off his land so it could be free from sin and so his people could be free from sin. This is a case of property rights, and points to Revelation where God enforces his "property rights" for the entire universe. Regardless, this was only ever on people in God's land, and never off of his land (Deuteronomy 2:9).
15. 54:42 You conflate "we" Americans with "we" Christians. Never, ever, do that! We belong only to the Kingdom of Heaven (Ephesians 2:19, Philippians 3:20), and that Kingdom is not of this world (John 18:36). This world is not our home (Hebrews 13:14).
16. In conclusion, this sermon seems to be more a study on defending the history of Christian thought post 300 AD, especially American conservatism. It is most certainly not a sermon on what God actually says, commands, and what his people did in the Bible. Mr. Wilson did get some good points that I didn't note here, but he ought to actually read and think about the Scripture and submit himself to it and not lead the listeners astray.
-A Marine who learned lots of this the hard way. And no, I'm not a pacifist!

[williamflamenco]

You have heard that it was said 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' But I say to you, Do not resist an evildoer. But if anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn the other also; and if anyone wants to sue you and take your coat, give your cloak as well' and if anyone forces you to go one mile, go also the second mile" (Matthew 5:38-41). I don't know how else you can interpret this in any other way... obviously Jesus does not agree with what the old testament taught regarding murder .... anyone can say God told me to kill this group of people... what people regard as a just cause for murder is the same for everyone the just cause is that they are doing it but when the other side does the same thing it's a crime

[jrwc]

i think the us soilder gona be the futre perscuter of a christain the military as whole. i have noticed the rome like way our military is but its bad. like its bad.