Franciscan Spirituality 101 -- Part 3

[careannthomas]

Wow, I've been walking with the LORD in the CC for 28 years and never heard this before! Thank GOD for this clear teaching on the truth and hope of human nature within the Divinity!

[Min-utiae]

Thank you. I love your analogy with regards to the ark of the covenant and the mother Mary.
Having been in a Protestant Christian Reformed church going family I guess it would make sense. My parents did not discuss church dogma much but one thing I learned later was that they did not believe in Calvin’s teachings. So I never heard about him until I was a young adult. Apparently the pastors of our church did not think it was important either. I Have now been a Christian for 50 years. (My heart was touched by the Lord when I was 11)
I have never even heard of immaculate conception let alone understood the meaning. At first hearing this I thought wow that’s kind of presumptuous considering what little is written about it in the Bible. What is written is not specific and clear.
However, the explanation here makes sense to me, and I definitely consider it as a huge possibility.
Never taught to me also was the concept that sin is not the only reason we need Christ Jesus. It’s so obvious now that I hear it! If we had never fallen into sin, we would still need our Creator to live!

[danjf]

I asked about 20 or so laypeople who have been in the church for some time and only 3 or 4 of them got the answer right about what is the Immaculate Conception. If (hopefully) Catholics can now realize that the true presence (Body, Blood, Soul, Divinity) is present in the Holy Eucharist then I'm hopeful that the Imaculate Conception will be undertood by the laity. Praise be Jesus and Mary ❤

[tonyhoffman]

Love the clear way you explain things🙏

[jewadkins]

I love it. I would go so far as to say that before anything was made God’s first idea or thought was to become human. He knew exactly what being human would need to exist which is why all things were made by Him and for Him and how man can be made in the image of God. Jesus is the only image God ever had so when God said let us make man in our image, he was referring to Jesus humanity and divinity. Man is able to share both

[amytaylor]

I am enjoying this lecture! I am familiar with the concepts already and agree with the Franciscans about human nature. There is something about the example of the child with the hot pots and pans that I don’t like and would really appreciate some sort of conversation about it if possible.

[tonyultrasound]

Some points of agreement, however there's a lot without a Biblical basis. These are just notes I made on the fly on some of the more serious issues.
There is no Biblical teaching that Mary was conceived without "original sin". None. Mary's own response to the Angel Gabriel puts that to rest in Luke 1:46-49 "My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Saviour, for he has looked on the humble estate of his servant. For behold, from now on all generations will call me blessed; for he who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is his name."
Mary here expresses her need for a Saviour. If she was sinless, she wouldn't need a Saviour.
The Bible is explicitly clear that "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23) and "there is none righteous, no not one" (Romans 3:10).

Mary did NOT have the "gift" of a perfect human will since she was not sinless. Her will, as far as the Bible would show us is the same as any of ours are post-fall. (Adam and Eve were the only humans who ever had the ability not to sin, however after their fall they no longer had that ability to not sin). Paul describes his own struggle with his will in Romans 7. He does things he does not want to do and he knows are sin.

(Logically, if Mary were sinless, wouldn't her mother have had to be sinless as well, and her mother, and hers? But I digress.)

"God messed up in the Adam and Eve story and had to start over again", and theologians were "trying to protect what Christ does"?? Jesus didn't need protecting. He Himself on many occasions made clear what he came to do, be the perfect sacrifice and propitiation for our sins. As to God "messing up", His plan of salvation was in place from eternity.

And, as Calvin and Luther (and the Bible in many places) stated, we are ruined. Actually Paul says in Ephesians 2:1 that we are "dead in trespasses and sins". So we're not "damaged" as this priest claims. Sorry, wrong. All of mankind is as dead as Lazarus was in the tomb after 4 days. Lazarus had no power to do anything other than to lie there and stink. As Jesus had to bring Lazarus back to life in order for him to respond to his command to "come forth" so the Holy Spirit gives us the desire to respond to God's call to repent and believe on Jesus for our salvation.

"Total depravity" does not mean that we are completely evil. It does mean that every aspect of our being has been corrupted by sin. It's the breadth of sin, not the depth of sin.
Psalm 51:5 "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me."
Jeremiah 17:9 "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?"
Ephesians 2: 1-3 "And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind."

"God could have saved humanity with a nod of the head", yes, but that would make Him an unjust monster and not true to His nature. If a judge simply forgives crime without exacting punishment we would hardly call him just. The perfect sacrifice for sin had to be a perfect man, and for this perfect man to bear the infinite punishment for sin that even one sin deserves, he would have to be infinite God. So, "another way"?? Personally I don't see any. So yes, God did indeed HAVE to incarnate. Sorry if that doesn't make sense to this man.
Yes, the Incarnation was necessary if ANYONE was to be saved.

"A sinless human nature would need salvation"?? Well yes, and there goes your idea of the "Immaculate Conception" (official Catholic dogma as of 1854) right out the window.

continued below

[tonyultrasound]

Definition of sin (it's not "disintegration"): Sin is any want of conformity unto, or transgression of, the law of God. {1 John 3:4. Whosoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. James 4:17. Therefore to him that knows to do good, and doesn't do it, to him it is sin. Romans 3:23. For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.

The whole point of a "Saviour" is to rescue or save people from something. Again, if Mary was sinless why did she need a saviour?

"Fullness of grace in a vessel of sin"?? So he's implying that Jesus being born through a sinful human being would contaminate his divinity somehow. The sin nature in man is passed down through the male. That is why the Holy Spirit's overshadowing Mary made Jesus' unique nature possible.

(As an aside, the reason for slavery is sin, one person's desire to conquer another person. Slavery has always been around (except for Adam and Eve in the Garden). God's Word says that "He made from one blood every nation of man. The modern justification for slavery came about as a result of the theory of evolution that promotes the idea of the inferiority of certain "races" over others.)

"Grass and caterpillars" caught up into God? Jesus didn't come to die to redeem grass and caterpillars. Again non Biblical. We are to be good stewards of the earth, however the earth is NOT us.

The attempt at making a parallel between God dwelling in the Tabernacle making it holy and Jesus in Mary's womb is completely erroneous.

The angel Gabriel says to Mary “Greetings, O favored one, the Lord is with you!” But she was greatly troubled at the saying, and tried to discern what sort of greeting this might be. And the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end.” And Mary said to the angel, “How will this be, since I am a virgin?” And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God. And behold, your relative Elizabeth in her old age has also conceived a son, and this is the sixth month with her who was called barren. For nothing will be impossible with God.” And Mary said, “Behold, I am the servant of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word.” And the angel departed from her."
Elizabeth in her greeting to Mary says "blessed are you [AMONG] women and blessed is the fruit of your womb."
Mary also says in the Magnificat that she will be called "blessed". Neither passage says that Mary is blessed, or exhaulted above other women or to be an object of worship.

"No where else in Scripture does an angel pay homage to a human in this way". There isn't another place in Scripture where an angel or human greets someone elected to bear the Son of God into the world. The angel isn't paying her homage or tribute. He greets her and tells her what God has elected to do in her. Neither does the angel say that Mary has "all spiritual gifts" in her.

She is uniquely blessed and privileged to carry the Son but that does not mean she is to be worshipped.

Revelation 22:8-9 John DOES bow down to the angel, but the angel tells him not to because he is a fellow servant. If an angel is prohibited from receiving worship all the more are we prohibited from receiving worship. Peter, Barnabas and Paul prohibited men from worshipping them "for we are men of like passions with you".

"Mary's mind was not 'messed up by sin'". Again, she was a sinner like everyone else ever born. Paul did not say "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, except for Mary". He did not say "There is none righteous, no not one...oh, but except Mary". John did not say "If we say we have no sin we make Him a liar and His truth is not in us...oh except for Mary. I took her into my house after Jesus died and I KNOW she was without sin." He said "If we say we have no sin we make Him a liar and His truth is not in us" 1 John 1:10

Luther's example of us being a manure pile and God's grace falling and covering us is precisely right whether you like his use of the extreme (Paul, by the way, felt so strongly that his own works could never save him, or gain him righteous standing before God that he used the Greek word "skubala", which can be translated as "dung" to describe his works). Again, Paul says that outside of Christ we are dead in our trespasses and sins. We're not "damaged". Spackle and sanding won't bring a dead body back to life.

Again, if God simply willed forgiveness and redemption without exacting the penalty which He himself pronounced on sin He would be unjust and unholy.

The reason for the sacrifice of Christ's death on the cross is that God said via the Apostle Paul . "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree.” Galatians 3:13

The Incarnation was absolutely necessary for the following reasons (among many others).
The reason far and above any other is that God prophesied the Incarnation throughout the Old Testament, starting in Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring[a] and hers he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.”
That is enough reason in and of itself, however the following are also reasons for the Incarnation.
Revelation - Jesus came to "show us the Father" and to show us how to pray to the Father.
To show our inability to keep the Law - No one has ever kept the Law of God. We have never and can never keep the first Law of God (Matthew 22:37-40 “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.)
”Propitiation - 2 Cor 5:21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
Intercession before the Father as our Great High Priest. - Hebrews 4:15-16 "For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

Extra biiblical doctrines: We are to search the Scriptures like the Bereans did, looking to see if what Paul was teaching was the truth. And Paul's strong admonition in Galatians 1:8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.