Smith Versus Smith: US Army/Marine Relations in 1944 - WW2 Documentary Special

When Marine Corps General Holland Smith removed Infantry General Ralph Smith from command in 1944 during the Battle of Saipan, it began a controversy that soon snowballed, threatening to sabotage Army-Marine relations at a time when cooperation was the key to victory.

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Hosted by: Indy Neidell
Director: Astrid Deinhard
Producers: Astrid Deinhard and Spartacus Olsson
Executive Producers: Astrid Deinhard, Indy Neidell, Spartacus Olsson
Creative Producer: Marek Kamiński
Community Management: Ian Sowden
Written by: Indy Neidell
Research by: Indy Neidell
Map animations by: Daniel Weiss
Map research by: Sietse Kenter
Editing and color grading by: Simon J. James
Artwork by: Mikołaj Uchman
Sound design by: Marek Kamiński & Simon J. James
Colorizations by:
Mikołaj Uchman

Image sources:
Source - Image Name/Number

Soundtracks from Epidemic Sound:
Call for Action - Jon Bjork
Restless Pacific - Jon Bjork
Restrained Freedom - Jon Bjork
Sense of Betrayal - Experia
The Lifeguard - Jon Bjork
Watchman - Yi Nantiro

A TimeGhost chronological documentary produced by OnLion Entertainment GmbH.

[WorldWarTwo]

In the heat of the Battle of Saipan in 1944, Marine Corps General Holland Smith made a bold move by relieving Infantry General Ralph Smith of his command. This decision did more than spark controversy, could it have threatened the very Army-Marine unity that was so pivotal to securing victory?

[davidkinsey]

In spite of Holland Smith's actions, the interservice rivalry between the U.S. Army and the USMC was nothing compared to the rivalry between the IJN and the IJA.

[Significantpower]

Holland Smith feels like a living caricature of every negative Marine officer stereotype. Biased against other branches, refuses to listen, acts on ignorance, and outright lies rather than admit his own mistakes.

[THEZEKER]

Holland Smith was barred from the surrender ceremonies on the USS Missouri. At first it was thought to be an oversight but when fellow Marine generals appealed, they received a hard no from Nimitz and Washington.

[oldesertguy]

Former Marine here. Holland Smith was one of those guys who insulated himself from the real fighting, even though he had seen combat earlier in his career. It's like the CEO of a company that has no idea what his employees' work environment is and makes unrealistic demands. It might have been dangerous for him to visit the front, and I'm not talking about the Japanese.

[WarInHD]

Ironically there were 3 Medals of Honor awarded in the Battle of Saipan. All were awarded to Army Soldiers from the 27th. Pvt Thomas Baker, Lt. Col William O’Brien, and Cpt. Benjamin Salomon. The 27th has a total of 14 Medals of Honor awarded to its men

[ar]

As a Marine, I am very biased, but the whole 27th was done dirty here.

[IronWolfOverland]

Good that you made this special episode. As an undergraduate, I gave a brief report on Saipan. My summary was the traditional one: USMC doctrine is cover ground, mop up later. Army doctrine is don’t advance until you have secured any enemy pockets within your perimeter. Hence the conflict. In fact, I often use this as an illustrative example in business management of the challenges of collaboration across functions within an organization that are culturally different, such as Marketing and Manufacturing.
It’s good to hear alternative views of this bit of history.

[chuckvt]

Super interesting episode! As an army veteran from the Vietnam-era, I am quite familiar with the inter-service rivalries, but this was way beyond that. I am glad Ralph Smith had the last laugh by being the last WWII General to pass on to his reward. Holland didn't get to witness the surrender on the USS Missouri because by then, his reputation as a dick was well known. His nickname "Howlin' Mad" was on point!

[ToddSauve]

My ex's uncle Bob fought with the 27th Infantry Division on Saipan. All he told me was that they never, ever took prisoners. He was shot in the back, apparently by a Japanese machine gun round, and the doctors refused to take it out because it was embedded so close to the spine they feared leaving him paralyzed. He worked for the Phoenix, Arizona post office when I met him in 1991. People should take into consideration how many Japanese soldiers were killed by the army and marines on Saipan. 29, 000! It was one colossal slaughter. Period.

Lee Marvin, the famous actor, was a marine in their 4th Division on Saipan and was badly wounded there, spending more than a year recovering before being invalided out of the corps. Of the 250 or so men in Marvin's unit, only about five survived the war. Being in the army or marines in the Pacific was nigh on a death sentence, and for by far the vast majority of the Japanese it actually _was_ a death sentence.

[redaug]

It's good to see that history has vindicated Ralph Smith and Army servicemen who fought on Saipan, despite Holland Smith's best efforts to revise the narrative. It's also worth considering, in regards to the 27th's situation on the island, that in addition to not having complete control over its own units it was already short 5, 000 men compared to the two Marine divisions which both had an assault strength of 21, 000 troops. It's no wonder then that the Army couldn't rapidly overcome the strongest Japanese positions in the center of the island with so few men to provide the same support that the Marines had on the flanks; and I believe that had any other Marine General been in command this would have been recognized and remedied without throwing Army associates under the bus. It really was just a "Holland Smith" problem at the end of the day.

McManus's "Island Infernos" is an outstanding book by the way. Strongly recommended to anyone interested in the Pacific War.

[faenethlorhalien]

A coward soldier can be a sign of many things. A coward general like Holland Smith, who won't even have the courage and dignity to dismiss his subordinate himself, is a sign of incompetence and deep personal issues.

[MakeMeThinkAgain]

You could do another special episode about the REAL war in the Pacific: The fight between the sailors of the USS Washington and the USS South Dakota. They eventually had to stagger their shore leaves so that they were never on the beach together.

[nickhaynie]

I have read a lot about the Marines and their battles in WWII. I have learned that Gen Holland Smith was not well liked by his peers or subordinates. At Tarawa where he was in command he stayed at HQ on the ship only going ashore on the 3rd day when the fighting was practically over. Again he was in overall command at Iwo Jima and demonstrated the same M.O.

[brushwolf]

My grandfather was on Siapan with the 27th when this happened.

He said very few things about the war. He would start to tear, look up at the ceiling, and not be able to say anymore. One of the few things he did say was while on the island he was nearly killed by a mortar round when it hit the edge of his foxhole. A part of his bandolier which was laying on the edge of the hole wound up in a tree above him, seen the next morning. He saw a friend get his arm severed in the heavy fighting.
He also said that he witnessed a US soldier purposely kill an elderly male civilian. He said he wanted to shoot that fellow serviceman.
He later went on to Okinawa and fought on the west coast of the island, charging some of the Japanese defense lines there.

[williamdonnelly]

In 1950 during the Korean War, there was a great deal of tension between Army general Ed Almond (MacArthur's BFF who could do no wrong) and Marine General Oliver P. Smith. As it turns out that Smith's assessment that there were Chinese troops in North Korea in November-information that was deliberately downplayed or ignored by Almond-put Smith's forces in much better defensive positions, while Almonds hubris led the Army into a huge, bloody ambush.

[Paladin]

This sad chapter in flawed leadership illustrates why Holland Smith's nickname was "Howling Mad". I've served in several joint billets and never encountered behavior even remotely like Smith's. It is incredibly petty and unprofessional, and it is painfully obvious he was promoted beyond his abilities as a joint force commander. If there is a silver lining to this story, it is that our military learned a bitter lesson from this experience when selecting future joint leaders.

[transitionministries]

I am a Vietnam Veteran Marine, older brother US Navy prior to Vietnam, younger brother US Army post Vietnam & cousin in the Air Force at the exact time I was "in country". I would never besmirch the service my "Blood"! I have a very large extended family & it covers all the services back as far as the Civil & Revolutionary Wars. The only dispute between the services should be between Garrison troops at the EM Club after to much beer. Semper Fi

[lesterpossum]

1. In WWI, the 4th Marine Brigade was commanded by Charles A. Doyen. Doyen was fired and sent home by Pershing, and died soon afterward. Holland Smith had been on Doyen’s staff, and held a grudge against the army ever after (despite Pershing’s having fired five army generals as well).
2. In William Manchester’s “Goodbye Darkness, ” he relates the story of two army officers liaising with the Marines on Okinawa. Offended by the army officers’ dismissive remarks (including the term “bellhops), the Marines deliberately led the soldiers into an exposed position where they were guaranteed to be killed.

[Mondo]

My father, A US Army Combat Engineer, fought along side the marines on both Guam And Okinawa. He was not impressed with their commanders. He witnessed so much useless waste of young men's lives during the fighting.
If anyone was to get fired, it should have been Holland Smith.