Developing Thrust Vector Dogfighting Tactics

Episode 172 guest, Rogers E. Smith describes how thrust vectoring affects close-in air combat.

#fighterpilot Podcast

[algrosskurth]

I had a similar incident as an instructor in VMFAT-101 in the early 90’s (there from 91-95) with a student (gordo) being ballistic in a 1v1 and not calling it. Luckily I had enough energy left (we were both nose high but him inverted and above me) that I could use rudder to displace myself horizontally as he eventually fell out of the sky from above me. Got the HUD tape of pipper on once he fell below me and I could get nose on. Knock it off and a debrief later /post flight on why certain calls need to be made and the importance of communicating that to prevent midair’s..

[Guysmly]

That's very similar to what one Eagle IP and Red Flag adversary pilot said about F-22s. He found if they could "bait" a fresh rookie Raptor pilot into going for a ludicrous post-stall high rate pull early in the fight then he in his F-15 would have a chance to score a kill on that F-22. And once an F-22 pilot learned to not get too "greedy" in BVR they became practically unstoppable.

[keithw]

Could that flight where you called “going high” result in vertical scissors or was everything too fast?

[MG-mtss]

Explain why the new 21st Century F15 EX does not incorporate 2D thrust vectoring nozzles like the F22 Raptor?

[BobbyGeneric]

Daily Im a hot shit airline pilot... Then I hear conversations like this.

[leslyclark]

That's God's First Gift FROM HEAVEN

[eamonaugustine]

Who country did he think had the better fighter planes

[МихаилПоляков-кд]

I LIVE 5 YEARS NEAR GROMOV AIRBAISE.
I LEFT IT. TOO LOUDY. EACH MORGNING.

[phxclosureman]

1:08 *WTF DID HE JUST SAY ABOUT THE SR-71 HAVING THRUST VECTORING AND FLYING AT 70 DEGREES AOA????* 😂😂😂😂😂

[cjcwoot]

Only question I have is, Did you shoot him the bird when y’all crossed each other Sir ? Haha

[Emma]

Not gonna lie, I'd probably pass out in terror.

[rmack]

These casts just don't hit the same when you can load up DCS and see that the guy being interviewed is sort of wrong.
In WVR a thrust vector AC will beat the rate fighter every time if it's not ridiculously underpowered.

[petermclelland]

Dogfighting? It's the 21st century missile age for gods sake, not the 1940s. - Look at Ukraine!

[xyz-hjul]

TADIRCM > IRST HOB > PSTM.

Tactical Aircraft Directed Infra Red Countermeasures is more important than...
Infra Red Search Track High Off Boresight (missile) capability which is more dominant than...
Post Stall Tactical Maneuvering.

Why? Because all modern SRM now have inertial midcourse and a datalink. So they can be fired (and corrected) onto a threat, especially with PIRATE or OSF or OLS-35 level IRST which can look as much as 90' azimuth-away from the waterline. And having FPA imagers themselves (640X480 or better) can image whole zones of airspace and thus do the equivalent of electro-optical 'track while scan'. Without the radar emission.

Coupled to much larger, more powerfully motored, short range missiles than the tired AIM-9X, this means you should NEVER accept the merge fight. Steer away from it. Do the drive by. Launch missiles like torpedo spreads.

And the shorter range = shorter time of flight condition will translate to low defeat levels, especially for stealths, because, by the time they see you going by at 10-12nm (and modern IRST will actually track out to 40nm+) they are in a really bad way.

So bad that, even with MAWS (Missile Approach Warning System, UV/IR bugeyes that see the motor ignition and burn plume), they cannot defeat the missile.

Unless...

They have a laser based countermeasures system which dazzles the target seeker enough to push the missile off.

In the late 90s and early 2000s we were within 2-3 years on fielding the Viper and a couple other 'small and sleek' TADIRCM installations which would not completely compromise the fighter aerodynamics or signature. So close in fact were we that AvLeak at one time said that the F-35 would have it, on service debut.

Today? No TADIRCM. And HOB Missiles are now so dangerous that you will not live to get close for a TVC gunfight and the setup conditions (low speed entry, significant lateral or vertical positional dominance, as described) will only get you to face shot from someone's Python/MICA/Archer/PL-10.

This is why the TVC sacrifice is not worth it, for manned platforms. By the time you get to the speed range where it's not instant GLC-kill on the pilot, you are too slow, too close, to be survivable against a threat which 50:50, still has missiles onboard.

This may change for a UCAV. But then again, HELs (High Energy Lasers) are now approaching the point where DIRCM shifts to hard kill. With a 60KW system, your bubble is probably 2 miles across. With a 100KW, 5 miles. With a 300KW, probably approaching 10nm.

At least that is what MTHEL/Nautilus was getting (off a less coherently stable wavefront COIL), shooting down CRAM targets in the early 2000s.

Increasingly, bringing the bus platform to drop multiple effectors is just not worth the initial purchase price as training costs. You drop the weapon carrier and go pure missile. Even if the launch platform is a sub or cargo jet to get standoff, station time and saturation effect.

As shown above, humans make too many, ego-driven, mistakes. And are far too biologically impaired in terms of response rates and sensory acuity/globals, 'Simply to be in the fight because they showed up...'. In a 100 million dollar platform that is not even (JSF) optimized to the mission.