Everything You Know About The Future is Wrong | Aaron Bastani meets John Gray

John Gray's writing on political philosophy is not easily pigeonholed. Over the last 50 or so years, he has favoured ideas that span the political spectrum and pissed almost everybody off - his central thesis being that growth and progress are not inevitable.

In his new book, his attention turns to the changing fate of 'the west'. This, to him, means a revival of old forms of living: feudalism, religious orthodoxy and ultra-nationalism.

Aaron sat down with John to talk about the nonsense of centrism, the US opioid epidemic and why Dune is the most worthwhile work of science fiction.

Novara Live broadcasts every weekday from 6PM on YouTube and Twitch.
Episodes of Downstream are released Sundays at 6PM on YouTube.
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[k-h]

Thank you so much, this was an enlightening conversation. Great host and guest. In my view, this is exactly what the BBC should be producing, not worthless programmes like Politics Live. I’m a recent subscriber, keep up the great work.

[MikeL-]

Great interview, wish I’d known of John Gray’s work sooner. Another example of Novara’s essential work in keeping the public informed to a degree unthinkable in the mainstream media.

[caramelbaba]

Finally, a piece of media where I feel i’m not losing brain cells watching. Thank you.

[QQ_]

You gotta love the phrase "if something is actually happening then it is definitely possible".

[pricklypear]

This was one of the most interesting conversations that I have heard in recent times. We are too used to being fed a starving diet of superficial conversations. This one sunk it's teeth properly into the subject matter. Thank you!

[geekerella]

This is one of the most interesting, intelligent, stimulating discussions I've seen in years. Thanks so much for this.

[liamlenihan]

Read Black Mass as a student back in the mid 2000s and remember John Gray lecturing in University College Cork and annoying both liberals and conservatives in the audience. Great to see him on the excellent Novara Media.

[majorblazer]

🎯 Key Takeaways for quick navigation:

00:00 🌍 Populism is a reaction to social disruptions caused by liberal policies.
02:19 🌐 Globalization was seen as inevitable and irreversible during a specific historical context.
08:57 📈 The belief in constant exponential growth and progress is a flawed notion.
17:44 💼 The current system can be worse than feudalism as many people have no productive roles in society.
22:59 🌟 The idea of continuous, linear progress in society has been challenged, with many not expecting future generations to have better lives.
23:42 🏠 Many young people today can't afford to own or rent a house, especially in expensive cities like London.
25:15 🌍 Capitalism's evolution: from religion being the opium of the masses to the promise of a prosperous future to now a sense of no future.
27:46 🌐 Post-World War II, social democracies aimed to moderate inequality and mitigate suffering, but this approach changed with globalization.
30:17 💼 Today, advocating for limitations on capitalism's reach is often seen as anti-capitalist, even if similar ideas were once considered mainstream.
43:46 🌐 Tyrannies may be terrible, but not all tyrannies are equal, and the desire to eliminate any tyranny can lead to unintended consequences, as seen in interventions like Libya and Afghanistan.
46:43 📜 Ethical dilemmas exist where tragic choices must be made, and they may persist in human society.
48:50 💭 Human frailties and conflicts will endure, even in societies with abundance.
52:12 🌐 The view that structures of power can eliminate tragic choices differs between left-wing and neoliberal thinkers.
55:53 🌍 Certain social and political systems can become trapped in historical cycles of dysfunction.
59:22 💼 Public ownership of utilities may be desirable but impossible for a British government reliant on capital markets.
01:00:02 🇪🇺 Brexit was influenced by an idealized view of Europe and resistance to empirical analysis.
01:03:29 💡 Brexit led to discussions about the merits of political populism and its consequences.
01:05:06 🇪🇺 Europe faces challenges, including conflicts between member states and the rise of far-right nationalist movements.
01:07:12 💰 Leaving the Eurozone is a complex and revolutionary process, with potential economic consequences.
01:08:07 🇺🇸 John Gray discusses the increasing division in the United States, partly driven by issues like abortion and religious composition, impacting politics and gender issues.
01:09:43 📜 When deeply controversial values are turned into constitutional rights, as with abortion in the U.S., it can lead to political capture and conflicts.
01:11:06 ⚖️ The introduction of the Supreme Court in the UK by Blair has led to law becoming a surrogate for politics, resulting in paralysis in decision-making due to endless litigation.
01:20:32 🌍 Hyper-liberal ideology projects extreme Western ideals globally while paradoxically deeming Western societies as fundamentally flawed.
01:25:23 🗳️ The U.S. faces a growing legitimation crisis, with neither party likely to be accepted as legitimate by a significant portion of the population, leading to potential dysfunction in governance.

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[jiggsborah]

I worked at a mine in a small African country with a lot of Englishmen back in the 80's and nineties. I remember the hot arguments we all had in the pub around Thatcher's policies. I'm only a Mechanic but I do understand that certain things cannot be privatised because business is dependent on them.
Power production for instance is something that should be left to the government. Even if it's done at a loss the money is still collected through taxes because cheap energy leads to jobs and a vibrant economy.

[NVRAMboi]

My understanding and world view are both improved for having watched/listened to this brilliant conversation. Thank you.

[lewis]

A really fascinating discussion, and a breath of fresh air from the kind of myopic, black-and-white discussions that are dominant on social media and mainstream media.

[Ln-cqzu]

We are not in capitalism, we are in a technocratic Tyrannical Oligarchy.
In the guise of globalism 😢

[mikemotorbike]

It's a pleasure to witness a conversation where the knowledgeable speaker always takes a moment to reflect on their response, instead of merely recapitulating a script like a runaway train. I love the way he educates me on politics by deconstructing the status quo and then re-presents them- adding a novel and palatable perspective, allowing us to see some light.

[idw]

A deep and highly insightful political and socio-economic analysis with disturbing conclusions. Most are blind to the various truths explored in this discussion and if forced to consider them, would even then dispute that they are truths. Thank you both. I feel enlightened by watching, if not exactly encouraged...

[belverticale]

Superb...nice to see John out and about. I used to find some of his views annoying but as I've got older and as the world stumbles down an ever darker path in the name of so-called centrism/liberalism under the awful yoke of laissez-faire capitalism and military industrial misadventure I've come to see him as one of the wisest voices out there in an often ahistoric commentariat wilderness. Cheers Aaron.

[danielopdenakker]

Yes free Assange. No corrupt institution has the right to keep him in captivity

[marie-laure.]

His description of the collapse of the USSR, fits the current situation in the west

[stevekirkby]

Wonderful to hear open discussion that is not sensationalist, but thought provoking. Thank you both.

[BogushCh]

The speaker's brilliantly relevant. Much social awareness is dependent upon a reliable, long-term memory. I remember how stable life was in the 1960s in Britain, and how quickly it feel apart during the course of the '70s and rise of rabid Thatcherism. It's in the context of common loss of memory, above all regarding the vital necessity to control the forces of capitalism, that academia has so hopelessly failed in the West; take, e.g., Francis Fukuyama blindly celebrating the West's victory of the East, utterly senseless to what it would mean for US Americans within a mere three decades.

[joefrancis]

Novara is able to engage with others in a way that is completely alien to large swathes of the media ecosystem. No other platform has conversations where opposing ideas are not only expressed openly and clearly, but the participants can grow and perfect their critiques through the conversation. Great work Aaron.