T 38 Stability, Maneuverability and Washing Out Students

Some think there is a correlation between the 'lack of stability' in the T-38 and the student washout rate. Not necessarily from my point of view...

[mikeswanigan]

I graduated from UPT in 1977. "Chair Flying" and watching landing videos were the magic tools that got me through the T-38 program. My favorite airplane of all time!

[Alf]

I was a member of Class 69-03 at Randolph AFB about 18 months ahead of you. At that time, class size was 45 students. We graduated with 31. One of the 14 lost was a medical wash-back who injured himself during the early Physical Fitness and Conditioning but ended up graduating with the next class. The other 13 either went out with Manifestations of Apprehension (airsickness) or inability to fly. Surprisingly all 13 washouts occurred before the end of Tweet instruction. Everyone who survived Tweets made it through the T-38. Even more surprising, all the surviving students thought the T-37 instructors as a group were superior to the T-38 instructors. I, for one among several other classmates, had to switch T-38 instructors in order to get through the program. Fortunately for me, class standing was determined by 50% academics/50% flying at that time. I was middle of the road flying-wise but number 2 in academics. Later ATC changed class standing to 10% academics/90% flying, or so I was told. I was lucky enough to get an F-105 slot and continued into A-7's and A-10's.

[boballoon]

Bobo, Never apologise for rambling on, the stories of your experiences are always interesting. Over the years we have lost many, many aviation anecdotes from the aviation world because they were never recorded either on video or written. Keep them coming. Best wishes, Bob

[mikehawk]

Thank you for sharing your wealth of knowledge. I’ll be heading to UPT this next year as an ANG fighter select, and I’m absorbing as much wisdom from your videos as I possibly can.

[ShadesOClarity]

Interesting story, Bob. In one of Ron's videos, he mentioned two students who did super-well in the Talon but washed out once they went to F-100s.

[xzhurdv]

I graduated in 1989 and we lost 25% of our class. When I returned to ATC (now AETC) in '93 hardly anyone was washing out because the classes were about 1/2 the size, so more IPs to spend time with the students. By then for busted a checkrides you would get only one 88 retake; subsequent checkride busts you would go straight to an 89 so in that way you had less chances to pass but we managed to graduate more people. Also the 'fear, sarcasm, and ridicule' had gone down significantly.

[David-wqz]

How can you remember so much detail after all these years? It was wonderful to be 23 and 24 years old at that time so I remember other things other than flying.

[comlbbeau]

It may sound a bit "infantile-ish" to chair fly a mission, but have you ever watched how the Blue Angles and Thunderbird pilots get in the zone during their briefings and visualize each maneuver and orchestrate their mission profiles?

[scarecrow]

I was at USAF pilot training 1986-87. When I got there a friend in another class said it was bloody, washout was bouncing around 50% of a class. We lost most in 37s, the class was mostly USAFA grads. I was last to washout just before my form check making it about 60% of class gone.
My 38 IP called me about a year later and said a new ATC CC had just put the brakes on, had to graduate 80% of each class.
Timing is everything.

[dahawk]

12:09 - "The -38 wasn't a pilot killer."

Tell that to NASA. From the 1950s through the mid-80s, the leading cause of death for astronauts was the Northrop T-38.

These fatalities do not count the times when moonwalkers had to eject from the T-38. Like Pete Conrad diverting to Bergstrom. Each fatality of these extremely experienced test pilots was a situation that was quite normal, that average AF 2Lts were expected to be able to handle.

[bombsaway]

Went to plot training at Williams, probably lost one-fourth my class in T-38s. In 99 was in flying training at AETC HQ. During my four years in the job, not one student washed out of T-38s for a flying deficiency. By this time we were desperately short of pilots and we were cranking out as many people as we could.

[stephensmith]

LAFB 67B, USAF, TANG, rEAL. We lost about 40% in transition to T-38's. I loved to feel the little bitch buck in the turn to final, and SE no flap was quick! It was a fine edged scalpel. Enjoyed your video. Thanks.

[kenm.]

I was selected to give the 88 ride to students in the "washout" program. It was rare that a student would pass at this stage. I hated to do it but worse than that, I had to sit in on his F.E.B. and testifly. That really sucked. There was one Iranian student who I couldn't pass and when I testified at his board, there was an Iranian Colonel there and his questioning of me made me feel like I was the one being washed out. The whole process was necessary but did not make me feel good at the end of the day.