Nietzschean Science - The Will to Power as Physics - Influence of Lange, Democritus, Boscovich

In this episode, we revisit the Pre-Platonic lecture series given by Nietzsche at Basel, the notes for which were assembled and translated by Gregory Whitlock. These lectures detail Nietzsche’s views on the first philosophers of Ancient Greece, and how they demonstrated that the spirit of scientific investigation is a manifestation of will to power: to bound the boundless within the understanding of reason, by appeal to as few possible starting principles. Nietzsche believes that the Pre-Platonic philosophers - Thales, Heraclitus, Anaxagoras, Empedocles, Democritus and others - represented the descent from an understanding of the world as controlled by a personified heaven, into something explained by natural forces. The end result is materialism: matter as explained by matter itself and its properties or laws. This is powerful and dangerous as an innovation. Materialism offers the greatest utility, but precedes a slide into nihilism. Many of Nietzsche’s insights in his interpretation were influenced by the philosopher of science, Friedrich Albert Lange. In this episode, we examine the relation of Nietzsche to Lange, their view of the Pre-Platonics, and then analyze each figure individually to see how each fits in to Nietzsche’s narrative of the unfolding of scientific thought in Greece. Rather than a mere historical curiosity, Nietzsche finds the Greeks to express the same driving tendency that underlies science in our own time.

On our second excursion into Nietzschean science, we’re studying Nietzsche’s two most celebrated figures in science: one from Ancient Greece and another from Enlightenment Europe. In Democritus, Nietzsche sees the zenith of the materialist project in Greek philosophy, opening the way for a mathematical atomist description of the world, carried on by the Pythagoreans. In Boscovich, he finds a continuation of this project, centuries later - to describe the world by one force or law, and account for the problem of motion in a way that rejects Kantian or Newtonian appeals to God, or Spinozistic teleology.
What comes out of this inquiry is an understanding that Nietzsche may have construed the will to power as a physical reality from the very beginning. From this perspective, will to power is the answer to the problem of motion; it is the inner, “intelligible character” of matter; it is the qualitative expression of what Boscovich’s unified field theory offers us in quantitative terms. This episode culminates in a look at some of Nietzsche’s more extreme or puzzling statements in his notes where will to power is discussed as a very real physical principle. Pictured in the episode art are Democritus and Boscovich.

#nietzsche #philosophy #schopenhauer #spinoza #physics #boscovich #historyofscience #history #democritus #heraclitus #anxagoras #lange #materialism #science

[therealmorty]

Whoa!! Wanted to look at Nietzsche's lectures. This is Uber-helpful. Kaufmann himself could hardly elucidate as much. Thanks for helping all of us with this material

[kimfreeborn]

At over three hours this lecture is still a worthy time spent. The deep dive into Gregory Whitlock was very new to me. The elaboration of the context of Nietzsche's reflections on scientific thought of his day in conjunction with the Pre-Platonic philosophy, I think, proved fruitful as an understanding of how Nietzsche formulated the Will to Power. On Spinoza and teleology: “All the prejudices I here undertake to expose depend on this one: that men commonly suppose that all natural things act, as men do, on account of an end; indeed, they maintain as certain that God himself directs all things to some certain end” (Spinoza, Collected Works vol. I, Curley trans., p. 439).

“[I]t follows, first, that men think themselves free, because they are conscious of their volitions and their appetite, and do not think, even in their dreams, of the causes by which they are disposed to wanting and willing, because they are ignorant of [those causes]. It follows, secondly, that men always act on account of an end, viz. on account of their advantage, which they want. Hence they seek to know only the final causes of what has been done, and when they have heard them, they are satisfied, because they have no reason to doubt further” (p. 440).

“Hence, they consider all natural things as means to their own advantage. And knowing that they had found these means, not provided them for themselves, they had reason to believe that there was someone else who had prepared those means for their use. For after they considered things as means, they could not believe that the things had made themselves; but from the means that they were accustomed to prepare for themselves, they had to infer that there was a ruler, or a number of rulers of nature, endowed with human freedom, who had taken care of all things for them, and had made all things for their use” (pp. 440-441).

[outofbox]

You are wonderful man sharing your knowledge here. Forever thankful for your presence man❤️

[TheWilliamHoganExperience]

Great stuff as always. I'm gaining a much deeper, more nuanced understanding of Nietzsche's philoshophy and his absolute brilliance as a writer / artist.

One thing that puzzles me though is his rejection of hedonism as a viable life ethos. From what I gather, he has no moral objection to the pursuit of pleasure. Rather, it's rejected because it leads to disastifaction and further longing. Well, I've pursued pleasure as an ethos off and on throughout my life, and I've found that it's great! The happiest, most productive and meaningful times of my life have resulted from pursuing what I'm passionate about, and these things have included art, music, architecture, and yes, sex, drugs, and rock and roll.

One of the things I like about Nietzsche is his iconclasim, and questioning of value systems, and rejecting absolutism and systemization / codification regarding philosophy generally. His intelectual wanderlust is central to his insights, as was his courage in bringing them forth so ahead of their time.

But he seems to generalize none-the-less when he condems pleasure seeking, as well as other attempts people make at finding meaning in life. Everyone is different. What works for one individual doesn't necessarily work for everyone. His ubermensch is presented in a utopian light. As a singular figure. An archetype. A savior of mankind heralding the will to power as the ultimate ethos. Yet if there's one thing that the 20th century (should) teach humanity, it's that utopianism and the pursuit of perfect societies always results in holocaust. Or as Kant put it "Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made" Even physics seems to back up the impossibility of perfection. Absolute predictability is impossible as far as we know. Hell, the language of science - mathmatics - can't even give us the exact area of a circle! The circle is the most simple geometric form. To say nothing of Gödel's incompleteness theorems and thier stunning indictment of the logical incoherence of even basic arithmetic....

[PoundianAesthete]

You articulate Nietzsche beautifully. I hope this channel blows up. Thanks for all your doing.

[NothingHumanisAlientoMe]

...it would be quite the conversation to invite Chris Langan on to discuss CTMU if you are daring as such...

Great show

[gingerbreadzak]

01:07:59 🕰 Heraclitus rejected the concept of being, asserting that strife is justice and that change is eternal, leading to the idea that the world of becoming is the ultimate reality.

01:10:34 🧪 Carl Ernst von Baer's thought experiment explores how different pulse rates affect subjective experiences of time, highlighting the subjectivity of our perception of time.

01:19:26 🔀 Nietzsche views Parmenides, Xenophanes, and Zeno as dead ends in the development of pre-Platonic philosophy, considering them anti-naturalists and not substantial contributors.

01:22:57 🔬 Anaxagoras is seen as pivotal, as he introduces the concept of the conservation of matter and the idea that matter changes forms through mixing and separating, furthering materialistic ideas.

01:25:17 🧪 Empedocles introduces the concept of an original non-mechanical motion, resolving the dualism between mechanical and non-mechanical motion, and also foreshadows ideas related to natural selection.

01:29:30 🧪 Nietzsche believed that Empedocles correlated with Darwin, similar to Thales with Lavassiere or Heraclitus with von Baer, showing Nietzsche's influence from Friedrich Lange and his idea that adaptations preponderate in nature.
01:30:54 🧘 Empedocles' views were not materialistic but included concepts like the oneness of all things and existence as a form of punishment, aligning with moral ideas and developing Nietzsche's understanding of the will.
01:34:54 🔍 Democritus provided a complete materialistic theory, proposing that all things are made of atoms and void, and explaining the world without resorting to mythology or metaphysical forces.
01:40:29 🌌 Nietzsche considered materialistic atomism as "the truth for us, " representing a shift towards an atomistic worldview where the universe is seen as consisting of particles governed by physical laws.
01:47:56 ⚖ Nietzsche saw the descent into materialism as a double-edged sword, bringing a more grounded perspective on reality but also leading to a potential sacrifice of life in the pursuit of scientific truth.
01:50:30 🌌 Nietzsche praised Democritus as the philosopher who overcame the anthropomorphic mythic view of the world, introducing a rigorous scientific hypothesis of matter moving itself according to general laws.
01:51:11 🧪 Democritus, as interpreted by Nietzsche, represents a significant figure in the history of materialistic philosophy, as he introduced a purely mechanistic and materialistic approach to understanding the world, free from mythic personifications and metaphysical forces.

01:52:36 🧲 Nietzsche recognizes the power and utility of atomism as a framework for comprehending the world, allowing qualitative descriptions to be translated into quantities and explaining the movement of the universe without the need for an intelligent force.

01:53:17 🌌 Nietzsche exhibits an early interest in the idea of explaining the entire world's infinite complexities from a single force, a concept he later develops into the "will to power" as a fundamental principle for understanding existence, rooted in materialism and devoid of metaphysical elements.

01:56:31 📚 Nietzsche was heavily influenced by Neo-Kantian interpretations of the history of science, drawing insights from both ancient Greek pre-Platonic philosophers and contemporary thinkers, engaging in a dialogue with the sciences and embracing scientific materialism.

02:01:38 💡 Democritus, the originator of the term "atom, " introduced the concept of atoms as indivisible units of matter, operating solely by mechanistic processes, thus contributing to the development of atomic theory and materialist philosophy.

02:04:56 🧠 Democritus viewed the mind and consciousness as forms of matter, aligning with a materialistic perspective, in contrast to other philosophers who saw mind or spirit as something transcending the material world.

[whoaitstiger]

There is a famous, probably apocryphal, but amusing anecdote of Diogenes standing and walking across the room to refute Zeno. 😆

[michaelroche]

I’m very grateful that you are sharing g your knowledge. Thank you

[gingerbreadzak]

00:00 📜 Emmanuel Kant emphasized the enthusiasm for science and its explanatory power in constructing a coherent understanding of the world based on starting principles and laws of motion.
03:01 🤔 The question of the point or value of science is a complex one, involving various perspectives such as its utility, pursuit of truth, and its role in human knowledge.
05:51 🔄 Friedrich Nietzsche's philosophy of science is often overlooked, but it has its own unique perspective on the relationship between science, philosophy, and metaphysics.
08:07 🔄 Understanding 19th-century science and earlier views of science, like those of Friedrich Albert Lange and other philosophers, can offer relevant insights into Nietzsche's philosophy of science.
15:56 💡 Nietzsche believed that the ultimate goal of materialism was to forge a single principle for understanding life and reality, where science, philosophy, and metaphysics are part of the same quest for truth.
18:54 🧠 The pre-Platonic philosophers fused philosophy and science into a unified pursuit of truth, challenging the idea that Greek philosophy was merely a preliminary stage in the history of thought.
22:10 🧠 Nietzsche viewed the history of philosophy as a progression, with Hegelian philosophy being more advanced than Greek philosophy.
22:37 🤔 Nietzsche was influenced by the Neocontians in how he approached Greek philosophy, seeing the value in the Greeks' teachings rather than projecting his own ideas onto them.
24:30 📚 Friedrich Uberweg and Friedrich Albert Lange, Neocontians, interpreted Greek philosophers as materialists, influencing Nietzsche's thought.
29:19 🔍 Nietzsche believed that philosophy and materialism emerged hand in hand as prerequisites for scientific thinking, emphasizing the importance of materialistic mindset in philosophy.
36:23 💡 Philosophy is a luxury, and civilizations don't necessarily need philosophers. Greeks produced philosophers during their peak, showing a unique cultural drive.
43:12 🤯 The drive to philosophy and science is the desire for freedom of the intellect from all constraints, leading to an understanding of even the most mundane phenomena.
45:30 🧩 Nietzsche considers Thales the first philosopher of the West, as he was the first to emerge as a distinct philosopher, moving beyond sporadic wisdom, religious revelations, and various sciences.
49:42 🌍 Thales represents the inception of philosophy and the scientific drive, emphasizing the will to comprehend the physical world through as few laws as possible.
53:23 🧪 Nietzsche compares Thales to figures like Paracelsus, Lavoisier, and the Kant-Laplace hypothesis to illustrate the scientific character of Thales' materialist approach.
59:13 ⏳ Anaximander introduces the concept of the "indefinite, " a quality-less matter that challenges traditional metaphysical notions and raises questions about the nature of time.
01:02:52 🔄 Anaximander's ideas on time monadism contribute to both metaphysical and scientific discussions, separating time from anthropomorphic representations.
01:05:56 🌌 Nietzsche omits Pythagoras from the discussion of materialism due to his cult-like religious aspects and focuses on figures like Thales and Anaximander for materialist philosophy.
01:07:18 🔍 Nietzsche's lectures emphasize the importance of establishing the chronological order of pre-Platonic philosophers as it relates to the development of materialism and philosophy.

[gingerbreadzak]

02:12:49 🤯 Nietzsche had great respect for Spinoza, considering him a precursor to his own ideas. Both Nietzsche and Spinoza rejected the existence of free will.
02:13:01 🌍 Spinoza's worldview was naturalistic but not purely materialistic; it saw God as an ever-present divine force rather than a personal deity.
02:14:10 🧭 Teleological positions in science imply that the world exists for some purpose or divine force, which was a popular view in Germany but faced opposition from anti-teleologists.
02:17:10 🤝 Nietzsche aligned himself with the anti-teleological camp, which included thinkers like Democritus, Kant, and Bacon, rejecting the idea of the world having a predetermined purpose.
02:20:29 🤔 Nietzsche saw the need to account for how purpose could arise from purposelessness, a challenge for materialistic understanding.
02:29:52 🤯 Nietzsche was intrigued by Boscovich's point particle theory, which explained motion without appealing to God, challenging the Newtonian framework and materialistic atheism.
02:32:54 🧪 Nietzsche aimed to explain the world through a materialistic lens, inspired by figures like Boscovich and Democritus.
02:33:35 ⚙ Nietzsche sought to move beyond transcendental idealism and complete a vision of a strictly material world.
02:34:29 📜 Nietzsche aimed to provide a materialistic explanation, departing from his biggest influence, Schopenhauer.
02:35:11 💡 Nietzsche addressed Schopenhauer's argument that atoms themselves are just representations, challenging this view.
02:38:56 🌌 Nietzsche embraced materialism and Boscovich's point particle theory to overcome objections and complete a materialistic vision.
02:45:43 🌀 Nietzsche believed that understanding matter as a representation of will was crucial, aligning first-order theories with second-order principles.
02:47:22 🌌 Nietzsche saw science as a source of pessimism, not nihilism, and was searching for his scientific hypothesis.
02:52:00 🌟 Nietzsche aimed to rebuild the world with "will to power" as the basis, connecting various phenomena through a single mathematical law inspired by Boscovich.
02:53:53 🌍 Nietzsche explored the connection between Boscovich's point particle theory and Pythagoreanism, emphasizing the role of points and motion in creating the world.

02:55:14 ⚙ Boscovich's point particle theory involved points with inertia, attraction, and repulsion as opposed to sheer number, distinguishing it from other theories of the time.

02:56:36 🔍 Nietzsche extended Boscovich's and Leibniz's ideas by introducing the concept of the will to power as the inner dynamic, surpassing Boscovich's point particle theory.

02:57:19 🧠 Nietzsche believed that everything, including the mind, is an expression of the will to power, emphasizing the centrality of this concept in his philosophy.

03:02:11 🌌 Nietzsche considered will to power as a unifying principle that describes all efficient forces in the world, surpassing other philosophical ideas like Spinoza's conatus.

03:06:10 🤯 Nietzsche's views on causality are complex, and he criticizes mechanistic explanations, asserting that will to power is the most fundamental explanatory lens for understanding the world.

03:12:23 📜 Nietzsche's quest was to reshape the world into a manifestation of will to power, a principle describing all phenomena, including purposefulness, movement, procreation, and nourishment. However, he was cautious about fully developing these ideas in his published works, possibly due to concerns about misunderstandings.

03:14:27 🌌 Nietzsche's description of the world in aphorism 1067 portrays it as an eternal, unchanging, and boundless force of energy, exhibiting a dynamic interplay of forces and transformations without beginning or end.

03:15:08 🔍 Nietzsche's world is characterized by a definite size, not endlessly extended, governed by transformations, and defined by boundaries, resembling ideas from Democritus and Heraclitus.

03:16:05 🔄 The world, according to Nietzsche, experiences a perpetual cycle of forms, from simple to complex, concord to contradiction, self-creation to self-destruction, and eternal recurrence, reflecting a dynamic and ever-changing nature.

03:16:49 🌅 Nietzsche's worldview embodies a dionysian perspective, celebrating the twofold delight of self-creation and self-destruction, suggesting a world without a definitive goal but filled with eternal becoming and joy in the cycle of existence.

[silent_stalker]

I’ve read some Taoist stuff and I found something interesting.

There is a story of a frog and a centipede.
Summary the frog keeps asking questions and one day it asks the centipede how it can walk on so many legs while he can barely walk on just two.

The centipede stops walking and tries to move the legs one at a time to try and figure this out- then realizes he can’t walk properly now- saying to the frog this has killed him and to not ask another centipede this.

Is this similar to Socrates when he constantly keeps asking ‘why’?
I was reminded of this when reading ‘temptation to exist’ and wondered if this is why Nietzsche said he couldn’t enjoy some of the stuff he said he used to enjoy before and a criticism of Socrates in his works?

[eddiebeato]

I shall consecrate the early hours of morning to this lecture.

Thank you!

[TimV-tx]

Beyond Good and Evil Aphorism 36
2:59:45

[oqsy]

This brings to mind the recent story of “scientists” that are making bread with “an insect derived butter”. Why?

[danmarco]

Regarding Will to Power at the level of Physics, Martin Butler, Philosophy podcaster who studied quantum physics at postgraduate level says it's entirely consistent with his understanding. He uses the example of quantum froth, the spontaneous creation of tiny particles even in the vacuum of space, as though "the void can not help but manifest."

[bath_neon_classical]

music gives us a mathematical representation of some integral feature of the bold design, like a reflection. loops and loops of loops. what does it all mean?

[dionysianapollomarx]

Love this. Nietzsche is definitely a kind of historical materialist of a Heraclitean kind.

[Marcin_Pawlik]

Fascinating stuff and lots to think about, thank you. I'll look into the commentary by Gregory Whitlock. To anyone interested in those parts of Nietzsche's philosophy I recommend "Nietzsche, Biology and Metaphor" by Gregory Moore - a great resource on XIX century science as an inluence on Nietzsche and ideas of life and will to power.

[guzzopinc]

Nietzsche really hid these influences! I never realized how seriously he took Democritus and I never even thought about Boscovich or Lange. Whitlock's research basically revises the whole picture of Nietzsche for me. Way to go essentialsalts --this is really an amazing contribution you have made. Enjoy the death metal.