Icon Veneration Should Make You Protestant

Truth Unites is a mixture of apologetics and theology, with an irenic focus.

Gavin Ortlund (PhD, Fuller Theological Seminary) serves as senior pastor of First Baptist Church of Ojai.

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00:00 - Introduction

[joshkd]

Icons can help for teaching biblical events and persons, decorations etc. especially for illiterate people who f those days, but for ‘worship or veneration purposes’ I think it's odd to use icons.

Jesus said, “I am with you always even unto the end of the world.” Why venerate a representation when you have the ‘real Jesus’ with you? I prefer the ‘real Jesus’ who is bodily risen from the dead, who is omnipresent, not just some chemical reactions of a painting.

[fengxianzhe]

I'm so so grateful that God uses you brother to help us to be rooted more in Truth 🙏

[capturedbyannamarie]

The fact that CS Lewis was extremely well read in all of this, and remained Protestant proves that to be deep in history is to cease to Protestant is untrue. So many have disapproved this saying. I totally agree with what you are saying, one of the major reasons I could never be orthodox or Catholic.

[JimCvit]

I disagree. When I see an icon that's just so moving line the Pietà it moves my heart and helps me meditate. It helps lift my heart to God. Sometimes my imagination just isn't enough. I thank God for those masterful artists who can do this.

[Mericaa]

"The idols of the nations are silver and gold, the work of human hands. They have mouths, but do not speak; they have eyes, but do not see; they have ears, but do not hear, nor is there any breath in their mouths. Those who make them become like them, so do all who trust in them"
Psalm 135:15-18

[RoyalDiadem]

Council declaring someone anathema if they don’t use icons ? and people still want to give them credibility on par with scripture ? 😭

[joshuamoore]

I’ve been to Rome, to the catacombs, and seen Christian iconography dating back to the 100s. The witness of the early church in its archaeology unanimously supports Catholicism and Orthodoxy. I suggest anyone look up the Dura Europos Church and Synagogue, or the images of the Catacombs of Rome for more evidence. Finally, one can look up the display held at Santa Maria Antiqua in 2016, which contained all sorts of early church iconography.

[corym]

I don't agree. There are places in the Bible where items belonging to Saints had power. For example, in Acts cloths touched by Paul were laid on the possessed and successfully drove out demons. There are other examples as well.

[CaseyCovenant]

Please write a book on the 7 Ecumenical Councils. If not at least one on Nicea 2 and icons.

[kalebl.]

To be deep into history is to seize being Protestant.

I'll see myself out...

[joshuafritz]

St Luke was the first iconographer. The enfleshing of God is not a minor theological point. This issue divides the Orthodox from the Arians. Christ is God.

[catholicmurph]

Nope. Art is good. Art depicting a good subject that points toward the ultimate good is obviously good. It will always be a mystery to me why some people hate art and artists so deeply as to claim that artists who love the Lord and their contributions are evil. Yet, many of those who claim this often love praise and worship music, Christian entertainment, and usually approve of inspirational-poster-level Christian art like pictures of sun rays breaking through the clouds and empty crosses. I think this comes down to a hatred of a particular culture in favor of one's own rather than an honest question of the efficacy and morality of religious art.

[rwleif]

I honestly don't understand how someone can be familiar with the Old Testament and not, at the very least, be very uncomfortable with such a practice.

[mariomene]

Imagine if Jesus practiced icon veneration. The Pharisees would have tried to stone Him to death for idolatry.

Yet we have no such encounter recorded either in scripture or "tradition".

Why not? He didn't practice it!

[supertigerroadtrip]

Except all the early catacomb churches had icons, and early christians discussed venerating saints and Icons.

[LadderOfDescent]

Orthodox and Protestants define worship differently. If you can’t agree on the definition than it’s really just talking past each other.



Worship- requires sacrifice, while veneration does not.

[ThumbKnuckle]

What about the first temple that God inhabited? It was covered in iconography

[KEP]

Lol. This is absurd. The earliest house churches that archaeologists have uncovered, many dating to the first century of Christianity, ALL have been found to have both icons and relics within them. This includes numerous house churches that were buried by the end of the second century and lost to history until being dug up recently. There are no examples of protestant style house churches from the first two centuries of Christian history.

[jmj]

Ever heard of the heresy of Iconoclasm? Christian brothers, icon veneration is not against scripture. Read the scripture brothers and sisters! If God forbade venerating holy images, why make the arc baring the image of two golden cherubs? Why make the curtain covering the holy of holies baring 4 images of Cherubs? Why make a bronze serpent for people to look upon in the dessert to be healed? Jesus baring the actual image of God, allows for us to venerate images, not as idols, but as something to lift our hearts to God and the great cloud of witnesses who cheer us on. This man preaches a false message. God bless you.

[cheerfulturtlegirl]

I have been learning about church history and I have been open to Eastern Orthodoxy, but this is an issue for me. I wouldn't feel right in my conscience venerating an icon. It would feel like idolatry to me. It resembles many pagan practices to me. I know those in the EO church have reasons to disagree with me on that. I just feel like I would have to go against my conscience to do it. The honest truth is that, while it may be nice Christian art, the way the LORD and the saints look is not seen as important. The Bible never mentions the looks of Jesus, but emphasizes who He is. Humanity likes to worship what our eyes can see, like the lust of the eyes. Even the most beautiful Christian art cannot show exactly what people looked like. They most likely had dark hair, dark eyes, and tan skin. It really doesn't matter.

There is so much emphasis on beautiful buildings when we could use the money for Bibles and missionaries. The world is spiritually dying without the Gospel. We are called to be the temples of God where the Holy Spirit indwells. God is not as interested in temples made with human hands. I have to admit, I prefer a minimalist approach to Christian life where I am mainly focused on the holy Triune God and the plain truth of Scripture.

I want to be in the church where God wants me to be. I am currently in an Evangelical Anglican church (ACNA) that is in communion with faithful Christians in the Global South (GAFCON). If God ever called me to Orthodoxy, that would be fine. I just cannot currently accept things I feel have very little Scriptural basis. I care about tradition more than most Protestants, but I believe the Bible is the final authority. Tradition cannot contradict the Bible.

I really don't mean this as an attack by the way. I am humbled and blessed by the faithfulness of Eastern Orthodox Christians throughout the world who have faced horrific persecution at the hands of Islam and communism. I am just sharing what my struggles are seeking to be obedient to Scripture, church tradition, and my conscience. I love all who truly love Christ.