Kevin Kelly and Ken Wilber — Technology, Evolution, and God

00:00:00 - Part 1: Welcome to the Technium
00:40:32 - Part 2: Spiritual Machines
01:08:26 - Part 3: The Great Google in the Sky
01:31:10 - Part 4: The Nine Laws of God

Wired magazine’s own “Senior Maverick” talks with Ken Wilber about some of the ideas behind Kevin’s blog The Technium, which explores the various ways humanity defines and redefines itself through the interface of science, technology, culture, and consciousness. Kevin also shares some of his own thoughts about the role of spirituality in the 21st century, going into considerable depth around his own spiritual awakening several decades ago.

The universe, we are told, is winding down. Nothing escapes the remorseless grasp of the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics—and with each passing moment, our world, our solar system, indeed our entire galaxy slowly approaches its inevitable heat-death. But this is not the full story, for while the universe is winding down, it is also winding up, bringing forth new forms from old, adding new layers of complexity where there was once only an empty vacuum. It is what Alfred Whitehead called the “creative advance into novelty,” referring to a distinct “tilt” of the universe toward more complexity, more significance, and more wholeness.

From atoms, to molecules, to single-cell and multi-cellular organisms, to the reptilian brain, mammalian brain, and the human neocortex—the universe is abound with inexhaustible creativity, pushing deeper and wider towards its own limitless potential. Entropy and evolution: these two “arrows of time” exert their pull upon everything that ever is, was, and will be—one pulling us up toward the eternal light, the other pulling us down toward the infinite black.

But it is not just physical matter that is evolving! Alongside the increasing complexification of the material world, evolution brings forth novelty in at least three other dimensions, particularly evident within human evolution:

- We see the evolution of systems, such as the movement from foraging to horticulture, to agriculture, to industrial, to informational modes of techno-economic production.

- We see the evolution of cultural worldviews, such as the developmental model offered by Jean Gebser, in which cultures develop through archaic/instinctual, magic/animistic, mythic/traditional, rational/scientific, pluralistic/postmodern, and integral worldviews, each offering radically different ways of interpreting our world and our roles within it.

- And, perhaps most profoundly, we see the evolution of consciousness, with cognitive faculties developing from Piaget’s pre-operational, to concrete operational, to formal-operational, to Wilber’s suggested “vision-logic” stage—and with values developing from pre-modern, to modern, to post-modern (or pre-rational, rational, and trans-rational) stages, and beyond.

Taken together, we notice a rich mosaic of evolutionary emergence, in at least four important dimensions: subjective and objective development in both individuals and collectives. This gives rise to Wilber’s famous “Four Quadrant” map, one of a handful of basic components that comprise the Integral model. The Integral approach helps to reveal some of the deepest patterns that run through all human knowledge, showing the relationships that exist between physical evolution, systemic evolution, cultural evolution, and conscious evolution.

Whereas some consider consciousness, culture, and technology to be mere epiphenomena of biophysical evolution, the Integral approach highlights many of the fallacies hidden within such reductionistic views. The Four Quadrants represent four distinct dimensions of the universe, all strongly correlating with each other, but not at all reducible to one another. Consciousness cannot be simply reduced to the chemical soup between your ears, as scientific materialists might believe. All truth cannot be reduced to cultural embedment, as post-modernists have claimed. And all of our behaviors cannot be reduced to techno-economic conditions, as Marxists presume. There are simply more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in any of these partial philosophies—and the Integral approach essentially tries to get all of heaven and all of earth onto the table, without ever confusing a meadow for a cloud, a mountain for a star, or an ocean for a galaxy.

Originally published on 9/17/2008

[integralstanley]

In no uncertain terms Ken states that the Technium MUST plug in to ethics. I suggest that the same is true for the Integralium. Ethics are related to the Spiritual which Ken reminds us is about connecting with others in a sacred way. If my readers think I am too far out on the fringe in suggesting that ethics even apply to people with an interest in things integral perhaps it is time to consider Kevin's rule, "maximize the fringes". Brilliant talk.

[re-thinkthis]

Completely mind blown. Listing had to start taking notes to listen again. Wow. thank you.

[mayankchaturvedi]

Great conversation between two brilliant minds

[eileennelson]

A higher consciousness is rising and the pangs of breaking through is in our face. Finally. A new awakening. Past the brainwashed and ones still asleep. We are waking up as the Common Man moves on towards spirituality and the new earth's unity of its people.I am dancing as fast as I can, growing up and utilizing a better way of thinking and acting. As Joseph Campbell said in so many words, the new symbol may be our Planet in whole, rather than divided tribes.

[feelovenergy]

I think you'd both be surprised by the amount of people who would join this church

[natclo]

Careful saying someone actually goes 3rd to them self, its not often a complete 3rd
6th person kind of implies they can see 4th, but the 4th position at this point is a often distorted memory from 6th