The War of Ideas: Athens vs Sparta

We are living in Sparta when we ought to be living in Athens.

[LifeLittle]

This is where you shine Carl. This is your format.

[Joybuzzard]

I noticed in university many years ago that the intro to philosophy course was centered on Plato. Many philosophers were presented, but the whole course seemed geared toward the idea that Plato's Republic was the foundation of any respectable philosophy. The professor talked about The Republic as a 'great watershed moment' because it was 'the first attempt at a planned society' which to him was 'the goal of every great philosopher since then'. The professor discussed a lot of different 'planned societies' and how they failed, but his main theme was that a 'planned society' should be the ultimate goal and that the failures of past 'planned societies' were just lessons that needed to be learned on the road to eventually perfecting it.
When he criticized any given philosopher, it was always about their ideas leading to 'disorder' and 'chaos'.
It occurred to me that this was the way intro to philosophy was taught in most universities, and that people majoring in all the different 'liberal arts' fields would take an 'intro to philosophy' course as part of that, and that liberal arts graduates were mostly being trained for administrative and social engineering functions, even anthropology and history were taught from an angle that seemed to explicitely promote complex hierarchies and the idea that controlling the day to day personal lives of citizens was part of what defined an 'advanced society'.

[MidlifeCrisisJoe]

Anti-fragile Aristotelian Advancement
VS
Paranoid Platonic Planners

[mikelee]

The visual at the end... comparing Athens to Sparta, really really drove that message home.

[DjDeadpig]

We are living in a combination of pre civil war Spain, Weimar, the end of Rome and the beginning of the American civil war simultaneously. Historical multieventism works in mysterious ways I suppose.

[trygveplaustrum]

*Thrasyboulos was a legend.*

An Athenian general who kept scoring victories despite his incompetent peers. When Sparta installed a puppet government, he led a rebellion of peasants to force Sparta back to the table and give Athens back its autonomy. He rejected the puppet government’s offer of a seat at their high table. What a legend.

[wright_handle]

A video showing how Athens botched its own form of Democracy would be a perfect complement to this

[vodkaman]

I studied Plato's Republic many years ago and remember being struck by how little I could agree with Plato's ideas whilst also being in awe of how phenomenally clever he was. It's also interesting to note how little difference there is between the spin and deception of ancient Athens politicians and the politicians of today with their concern for holding power for outweighing their principles.

[sgtbuckwheat]

The problem is, even if the current managerial class is removed from power, we don't have a virtuous and capable populace that can manage without a managerial class in any western country. A virtuous people must be made, over a lifetime of practicing the virtues, and our current rulers have spent decades actively and passively trying to prevent such a populace from emerging.

[chance_ondriezek]

I’m sitting down for lunch, and Sargon uploads.
*Perfect timing, my dude*

[theAEDan]

Aristotles philosophy has one glaring issue that history has shown time and time again. You can educate a group but you can’t make them think.

[terraflow__bryanburdo]

Note that the most successful leader of all time, Alexander, was tutored by Aristotle.

[therealthirst]

The likes of the WEF are the modern Platonists among us. They think of themselves as the "Philosopher Kings" that know best, and therefore deserve to rule everyone below them with an iron fist, and be able to shape society however however they see fit.

[WoWisdeadtome]

This feels like a good place to drop this quote:
"80% of managers add zero or negative value to the companies for which they work."
- Dr. Jordan B. Peterson

[Unholy_Holywarrior]

the goal isnt weimar america, its weimar world

[lordscrewtape]

" education without morals seems to me to be a way to create a more clever devil"...C.S. To educate a man in mind but not in morals is to educate a menace to society " Theodore Roosevelt..

[socklips]

The aspect of a country actively oppressing its own people, while throwing wide the doors to an invading force that has zero intention of integration is still absolutely wild to me.

[xenocrates]

I'm a great admirer of your thinking, but in this case I think you misrepresent Plato and the nature of his dialogue The Republic. I think the primary misunderstanding is that this dialogue is an extended, and complex, allegory about the nature of the soul and of justice. It is not a blueprint for a perfect society; rather it is a guide for the 'care of the soul' and understanding justice. How do I know this? Plato tells us this in The Republic itself; not just once but several times. // Plato was a master of allegory (e.g. the famous allegory of the cave), but the ability to read allegorically based literary works has been almost totally lost in modernity; I think it is one of the signs that modernity has lobotomized (that's a metaphor) many of our human mental capacities. // Scholars more learned than I have critiqued Popper's misunderstanding of Plato, but an online comment is not the place to unpack this in detail. As always, thank for your thoughtful analyses.

[mattharris]

Surprised starmer hasn't thrown you in jail yet, glad to hear he hasn't though!

[caffeineandphilosophy]

Popper fundamentally misunderstood Plato. The sheer volume of effort dedicated to refuting Plato, when the Platonic idea he sought to refute was in fact a thought experimented refuted *by Plato himself* within the Republic, only shows the intellectual shallowness of literalistic minds like Popper.