What makes adult fantasy 'adult'?

Something I've noticed a lot is that, particularly in the fantasy genre, we have a hard time classifying Adult vs YA novels. It seems that if a novel does not contain any mature scenes or "grittiness", it is automatically classified as YA. I want to challenge this assertion and give other thoughts on to why a book should be considered adult or not. Let me know if you agree in the comments!

[ElrohirGuitar]

I come from a time before YA. It mystifies me why there is such a delineation. It is the reader who is young adult, adult, or ancient adult. Each stage of your life brings a different understanding to your reading. I enjoyed Harry Potter in my fifties and sixties. I enjoyed Gulliver's Travels when I was fourteen. I understand Gulliver's Travels much differently now than I did then. I suspect I would have understood Harry Potter differently if I had read those books when I was fourteen. Writers who patronize to please a younger audience probably lose that young audience as well as older readers, if they are read at all.Of course, what do I know? We didn't have fantasy back when I was a kid.

[AbbySalter]

I feel a lot of the time female authors get lumped into YA and it’s harder for them to get shelved as Adult due to gender bias which then may push them to put graphic content into their books to get the adult tag I.e the Poppy War is adult but I’ve seen it in YA

[justthinkingoutloud]

I really get annoyed when I see people complaining about what I see as pretty average reading being unreadable just for having some level of actual prose.

[alexnieves]

Great video! I feel like too often something gets called YA as a marketing gimmick, Red Rising, Mistborn, etc.

[merreads]

This is such an interesting conversation! I loved this video, I can tell how much work you put into it.

[evandelaalquarame]

Thank you! Due to channels like this I can finally resume reading fantasy series that I missed because it was impossible to determine what was worth reading and what followed this trend.

You've described exactly what caused me to stop reading my favorite genre altogether in the mid-2000's: "adult" fantasy meaning graphic scenes that just detract from the story because they're objectifying women and subjecting us to their fantasies of what they would like us to be. I've spent far too long not reading at all, only rereading books I knew or focusing on safer genres like nonfiction biographies, which is sad for such an avid reader.

Sometimes graphic content fits - as a teen I was okay with a scene that was sickening but didn't go into extreme detail. It was setting the historical context in a dangerous renaissance area the group of characters suddenly found themselves in, having been transported from the modern day. Soldiers have done that sort of thing to women throughout history.

That's the only truly fitting instance I can think of reading though. So far Leo Carew's The Wolf doesn't get super graphic even about battle wounds and it works very well for violent battles. They'd be too bogged down with constant move-by-move graphic detail; fights are usually fast and intense. The gravity of injuries and their emotional impact comes across well with briefer descriptions instead of detailed gore too. It does get a bit gory when relevant, but not too much for this squeamish reader and probably within PG-13 guidelines.

[bethannebruninga-socolar]

I totally agree! The main things I look for in my personal assessment of whether something's YA or adult are the first two points you brought up: age of the characters combined with the maturity of the writing style. Really cool video! :)

[Jackolantirn]

"Older characters can have character arcs" TRUE!!!
Sword of Kaigen" comes to mind; it's a fantasy novel, where one main character is this young boy, and the other main character is actually his mother who has her own character arc.
The Reluctant Queen, book 2 in the Queens of Renthia, also has a mother main character, I believe, although I haven't read it yet.
Tehanu, book 4 of the Earthsea series, follows a main character who's husband died and her two children have grown old and moved out, and she has her character arc looking after the wizard main character from the previous books as he goes through his own struggles.
... I don't know why I'm listing all these books with older main characters, but... These are just examples of the few books that do have main characters who aren't so young.
I speculate that one reason we don't see more books with older characters with character arcs is that old people... They don't like to change. I look at a lot of the old people I know, and while there are exceptions, a lot of them have convinced themselves that the way they perceive the world is the correct way. And if your character doesn't change, then it's a little difficult to put them through a character arc, I think.

... But I dunno. I've been asking myself what makes adult fantasy "adult, " as most of the lines that people draw... I feel they draw liens that can get pretty blurry.
Yeah, sure, saying adult books have more complex themes sounds good, but younger audiences are capable of understanding more than what some people give them credit for. The cartoon series "Avatar: The Last Airbender" was shown on Nickelodeon, but it still includes themes like imperialism, genocide, and marginalization.
'Reading Level' is another line a lot of people point to, and that also sounds good, but I don't know how to measure that. Plus, there are some kids who understand words better than some adults...
Even the "adult content" line can be blurry to me. What does adult content mean? Violence? There are plenty violent medias targeted toward a young audience. Or is it sex? There are novels people consider YA that includes allusions to, or implied sex. Does it have to be graphic sex in order for it to be "adult?"
I dunno. I'm not very smart, and only see blurry lines, so I don't like the idea of "YA" and "adult" being genres. I also think of A Wizard of Earthsea, which received little critical attention initially because it was first published as a "children's series" rather than general fantasy. But anyway, I guess "YA" and "adult" are more of a spectrum? I dunno. ... And why am I up at 2:30 am rambling about how little I understand these genres.

uh... tl;dr, good video. I liked it. thank you.

[moderndayphilosopher]

This is a problem with the YA/Middle Grade split as well: I’ve read so many YA books with unnecessarily inappropriate scenes or language, and I know it’s just so the author wasn’t bumped down to Middle Grade! I completely agree — we should base the splits off prose or themes, instead of language and inappropriate content.

[IbbyMelbourne]

Hey, perfect coincidence that I found this video, because I just watched a review for The Way of Kings that touched on this. The reviewer basicly said they had Stormlight Archive hyped up by so many people that they thought it was gonna be this grand Game of Thrones story, but felt disappointed because Brandon feels very safe and tame with his writing. They basicly said that they enjoyed Stormlight more when they started thinking of it as a YA series. The context of how people consume a story is so facinating to me.

Also, just found your channel and I'm loving your videos!

[skeezixcodejedi]

Fully agree! Adult means more complex or mature themes, or makes the reader/consumer work a bit harder. Its not 'lazy' and 'comfortable' story .. younger readers may have less background in reading or history so may not know a trope.. but an adult is more likely to catch on a trope and be annoyed or have pre-baked emotions to it. An aduly book can get away with more, or push more.. CAN, but often doesn't :)

[loati]

A book can have sex scenes, a dark theme and gruesome descriptions and still feel YA. Also a book can have teenagers as the protagonists and be adult fantasy. Sometimes it's difficult to pinpoint what makes a book YA but you just FEEL it. I think it has to do with the writing, they way things are described and how the characters are written.

[Mackampackam]

I don't know if you are familiar with the Moomin books by Tove Jansson, but here in Sweden (and Finland) they are very well known, and usually considered to be for children. I reread all the books (not the comics) as an adult, and they were amazing. There is depth there that you don't understand as a child. I highly recommend. If you have children, read the books to them. I first read them as a kid and they are mostly droll, good-natured adventure, but they also deal with fear, nostalgia, mystery and loneliness, and it gave me a kind of peek into an adult world that I didn't quite understand, but it gave me just enough that i understood that there is more to life than a child can know. I think they are brilliant in that way. If you are a kid, you get an introduction to the mysteries of life; if you are adult you find recognition and wisdom.

[TheLibraryofAllenxandria]

Great video! I actually hate it when 'adult' stuff seems shoehorned into a book just to make it more 'edgy' or whatever. It reminds me of when Game of Thrones first aired on HBO and there was SO MUCH MORE SEX AND NUDITY than in the books, as they had to justify the fact that they were adapting a 'lame and nerdy' fantasy book into something with mass appeal, as well as justifying being on HBO. It was the worst.

Yes, yes, yes on Pratchett. Not just the satire, but also just his cultural references; the older you get and the more you learn and experience, the more likely you are to get the references he's making. I know in high school when I first read Discworld, I hadn't seen ANY of the classic movies he references.

[braindeadcabbage]

Another great thought provoking video, and I'm all for it. This really made me think about whether certain authors are adjusting their work to fit into certain categories because of pressure from their publisher. Or maybe they personally feel that they need to include certain things to appease a certain group/groups of people. Or if the book is their true unaltered vision. Maybe some of them might be trying to hit a certain genre because they think it will sell better.

[stayaz]

This channel is absolutely amazing !!! My favourite booktuber by far along with Daniel Greene

[Grid_Dragon]

I've been finding it harder to find epic fantasy series to dive into. I've become so burnt out on what I've classified as coming-of-age fantasy stories. It seems like such a common trope of 15-year old kid is thrust into the "real" world and learns to navigate which adults are helpful or trying to manipulate them.

It seems really hard to find those types of books though (at least on audible where I get most of my books). Though I did recently come across the Spellmonger series. I've come to really love that world, but the early sell for me was that when we meet t he main character, he's a war vet who's trying to settle down into a quiet country life. It's a fantasy novel so his life is quickly turned upside down. But it was so refreshing seeing someone who's actually mentally equipped to deal with that because of his life experiences as a veteran War Mage.

I'm just frustrated that it seems like the exception. When I read the synopsis of so many books to pick a new series while I wait for the next book to come out. So many of them seem to be young boy/girl has their blissful life of ignorance shattered when some calamity happens to their sleepy home town.

[TheEternalElir]

The First Law trilogy came to mind when you mentioned older characters. And every Guy Gavriel Kay novel.

[theroomiesdigest]

Yes this is a conversation we need! -mo

[cosyreadingtimes]

Quite interesting. Though one thing to add to you saying "not all of those aspects are needed to make a book adult" is, that even if some of those aspects are there, a book isn't necessarily YA. Books like Strange the Dreamer, The Queen's Thief or the Mirror Visitor do check for example several of those boxes (grey morality, complexity, more elequent writing) but still are clearly YA. And I'm actually happy about this. Because, if YA books would lack moral nuance, complexity and high writing quality, I would never want to pick up a YA novel ever again, I just would be bored. But thanks to there being YA authors who aren't afraid of taking chances, being bold, being creative and asking something of their readers, every now and then it's still something I might at least consider picking up. And in my op, the decision how a book is marketed should be alone by the author because they know best what audience they had in mind when writing the book.