Are Primaris or First Born marines better?

Now that the classic space marines have received a major upgrade, it's a good time to see how they stack up against the Primaris. In this video we go through the differences and compare units head to head to see which is better.

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[vandalworks]

There is only one way to decide this. Primaris army vs Firstborn army. Make it happen!

[KarlRosner]

No one will read this in it's entirety, but it made me think about these comparisons in more depth so I count it as a win. Ramblings below.

Tactical VS Intercessors: They get 1 weapon upgrade with the 10 point differences, this can be spent on a grav cannon which has 4 attacks balancing out the fire power difference between them and intercessors. Intercessors have their shoot twice stratagem which boost the damage output of their larger squads quite efficiently and trans human. If you're going MSU I'd go tacticals as they can fill supplementary battle field roles like tank hunting, letting you take more elite choices like vanguard veterans. If you want a battle line that you want to get into melee large Intercessors squads are the way to go.

Winner: Tie MSU go with tactical large battle line go with intercessors.

Devastators VS Hellblasters: No one is going to put Plasma cannons on devastators when they can put grav cannons on them instead for 5 points less. They out preform Plasma Cannons in almost every way expect against very high toughness vehicles, you also dont need to over charge them to remove marines making them safer. Also one of those guys is hitting on 2+ thanks to the dev Sargent Auspex, throw a missile launcher into that squad and you have a kills every thing unit. The only difference is when fighting 4+ armor save units, but the majority of those all have 1 wound so the 2 damage amp on the grav cannon isn't even a factor and they are still better versus hordes as they get more shots.

Winner: Devastators Grav cannons are just that good, lets hope that plasma cannons go down to 10 points where it belongs.

Eradicators VS Attack Bikes: You should have compared eradicators to attack bikes, both are high toughness high wound count tank hunters with multi-meltas which can move and fire without penalty. That said you can take squads of 6 Eradicators and you max out at 3 attack bikes. The bikes DO get their double bolters though and can rapid fire them at range. Even so the Erdicators are better as they have both trans human AND their stupid +1 save stratagems making them hard as hell to kill so they can just walk up and kill things. They will get a massive points increase at some point and when that happens attack bikes will be looking way more appealing.

Winner: Eradicators for now....

Biker VS Outriders: First born Bikers can take special weapons and their Sargent can take melee weapons and any one else that doesn't have one can take a chainsword. The primaris bikers however have access to trans human making them tougher for 1 CP. So I'm going to say you got this entirely backwards, the Firstborn are your offensive unit, a squad of 5 can take 2 meltas, a combi melta and 2 chain swords for ablative wounds but will die faster without trans human. The outriders can stick around longer, but lack any kind high strength/ap weapons forcing them into an anti-horde role.

Winner: TIE, they do different things and you'll probably want both in a bike army.

Assault Terminators VS Blade Guards: Terminators have deep strike.... so yeah, they get them selves into melee and TH/SS are tough enough that they can survive failing a charge. Blade guards are better as a front line unit as they can soak damage with TRANS HUMAN, funny how that keep showing up. So if you want a independent unit that will show up and potentially sucker punch a unit Terminators, if you want a front line unit that will hold agenst a unit like terminators blade guards.

Winner: Another Tie, they do the same things in slightly different ways.

Captains VS Captian: Captains are best when punching down, any thing serious that can deal damage to them will probably just kill them in one round. The win here goes to the Primaris because of trans human and the gravis armor giving them +1 toughness. Deep striking smash captains aren't going away though, and in that role the default TT/SS jump pack first born captain is going to still do work.

Winner: Primaris Cpatian in Gravis armor.

Assault intercessors VS Vangaurds: Vanguards win this handily, storm shields and lighting claws let them shred any thing effectively, they get the melta bomb stratagem for mortal wounds VS vehicles and their commander can take a thunder hammer to deal with high toughness targets. Their invuls and +2 save give them survivability and their jump packs give them mobility. They can be put in drop pods to turn one assault deep striking. THEY ALSO GET THE JUMP PACK MORTAL WOUND STRATAGEM!

Assault intercessors have ob-sec sure but they will be taking damage the entire time they are on the board and will run into front line screens that will block their advance. Vanguards jump over the screens and kill every thing. Verdict, take both if you're a melee army like white scars or blood angles. Take vanguards in any other army if you want some thing that deletes things and flexes like absolute chads while doing it.

Winner: SLAM DUNK FOR VANGUARDS.

TL DR: You should take stratagems and weapon upgrades into account when doing comparisons as they heavily modify the outcomes of these kind of things.

[meltedwing]

If GW puts this much thought into all of the other codexes in the game, then 9th edition will be amazing.

[Thescientist]

In case of the terminators you did not discuss, that the teleport homer got changed to offer way more utility. Now you can teleport your Terminators anywhere within 3“ of a friendly model with it. Way better than it used to be, since it also can’t be destroyed anymore!

[nathanieleck]

Right, I mostly agree with the points made, however something that was noticeably neglected throughout the video was customizable weapon options.

Yes, intercessors are probably better than basic tactical marines, but if you toss a plasma/combi plasma on a squad it costs 10 more than an intercessor. But now it’s damage output is massively increased, it’s more versatile, and you also have a bunch of a ablative wounds to protect your plasma guns.

For Devastators, you can mix and match heavy bolters, missile launchers, or just single naked marines to tank some extra damage, all of which really pull them above the hellblasters. (No matter how you kit them out, eradicators just outcless them so much).

With the vanguards, jump packs, power swords, thunder hammers, melta bombs, plasma pistols, and storm shields all make them so much better than assaults (except assaults are troops).

The bladeguards vs. the terminators is actually really close, as they don’t get much in the way of wargear, I’d give it to the terminators just due to deepstriking (which is really strong for objectives) and because thunder hammers are still amazing)

The sheer stupidity horrific number of attacks for outriders edge them out here, as well as better stratagem support.

For the captains if you want a counterpunch buffbot, take a primaris Captain, preferably Gravis as he’s very hard to kill and has a powerfist. BUT if you want a captain to jump with the boys, and be an uncensored beatstick, take the firstborn. He can easily deepstrike, his mobility is totally unmatched, and he can still hit like a truck with something like a powefist or relic sword. He also is great for just running around to get his aura where he needs it. Lastly he can also still be an amazing character Assassin if he needs to be, as he gets that fly power and with a decent weapon he’ll likely crush most non special characters (like if you need a mek KFF gone, or a tau crisis commander, or an annoying farseer, or any guard hero’s.)

[weetsy]

I'd always suspected they introduced Primaris as an "easy mode" army for absolute beginners. To the uninitiated, they seem more awesome. Bigger, sturdier, newer... with cool names for their weapons with lots of qualifiers like "Phobos High-Output Onslaught" Meanwhile, with the rules now, old Marines in the hands some someone who knows what they're doing will still win the day. Plus you need fewer Primaris to make a viable army, and they're being larger and all makes them easier to paint. The perfect balance of making their most popular product more accessible while not angering the base that made it that way in the first place./

[SymSne]

Should we be looking at Deathwing Terminators as a blueprint for possible changes to Adeptus Custodes?

[AngelusSperi]

Some things of note:
5 Intercessors vs 5 Tacticals + Heavy Bolter are the same points, but the tacticals will outshoot the intercessors. A special/heavy weapon changes a LOT.

Plasma Devs do get Blast. That makes them really interesting for a back field anti-MEQ unit. An apothecary would be good for babysitting either (and the classic is cheaper than the primaris), and if you slap a dreadnought in your back field, Wisdom of the Ancients gives the captain aura for 1CP.
Eradicators vs Melta Devs: Eradicators are definitely BANANAS, but Melta Devs can be drop podded right into melta range, so maybe they have an unusual niche?

Assault Intercessors for taking mid field objectives, Van Vets as a melee hammer into enemy's battleline sounds like a good balance.
(i.e. if you already take tacticals/intercessors as troops, then Van Vets to destroy their back field would be fun).

Outriders and classic tie shooting vs 3+ armour, but classic do better per point against anything lighter; outriders have 33% more melee attacks per point, but classic can take weapons on the sgt (so oddly enough, classic are better at shooting GEQs and punching MEQs while the outriders are the inverse). Special weapons also give classic bikers more battlefield roles (3x flamers for anti-infantry, 3x meltas for anti-armour, including combis) don't forget those!


Captains: TH is still really good against a lot of hard targets (-2AP when target has an inv save isn't a big deal). And the Relic Blade blows away the master crafted power sword. S7 is a pretty magic number: wound T3 on 2's, T5 on 3's, and T7 on 4's (who runs anything T6 nowadays? lol). Add in some fun strats (Salamanders for +1S and double damage on 6's) and that jump or terminator captain is NASTY. (also note: terminator captain comes with deep strike!). But yeah, bare bones guy walking up the field goes to the Primaris.

While not mentioned, I was really surprised to see how well point for point the predator stacks up against the gladiator (particularly the tri/quad-las pred, depending on how old you are hahaha).

And yeah, overall it's really amazing how much life has been breathed into the classic range. I am excited to see my firstborn really hit the table again! (p.s. what do you think of drop pod armies?)

[BTTFF]

I hope you will cover the "distraction carnifex" battle field role. Do not disappoint me!!!!

[kirklemmen]

As a Black Templar player, I am bring both Bladeguard and Terminators in the same list. The bladeguard are holding my mid board while my Terminators going to where I need them. Nothing keeps your opponent cagey more than 10 terminators in deep strike reserve. My friend when he sees me with Terminators just cries as they always hurt something important. (Personally I like standard Terminators with PFs and SBs over the TH with SS as they will always at least shoot something just in case my charge fails.)

[NorthMountainWild]

Im surprised you didn't mention the sneaky little trick for vanguard and tacticals. They come with the meltabomb strat to get some wonderful 2d3 mortals in melee against vehicles.

[Fuzzawakka]

Love the comparison. I was surprised you did not compare grav devs with hellblasters. I am not sure primaris have a unit that can compete with them. They are so good!

[justindangersmith]

You guys have been putting out some great content! Keep it up!

[discoveringancienthistoryw]

One thing to think about in this discussion is the effect of Combat Squads on how a unit may perform on the tabletop. A lowly Tactical Squad can effectively be turned into a mini-devastator squad and a fast moving combat squad in a relatively low-cost transport. How about this as an example (there are many) 10 man squad with plasma gun, plasma cannon, and sergeant with powerfist with a Razorback transport. One Combat Squad contains both plasma weapons while the other squad is moving/advancing with the melee sergeant tucked away in a transport.

[danielfarrell]

That comparison of Eradicators and Multi-melta Devs was a bit off as you forgot the Sgt's signum for +1 to hit and every Dev squad takes a cherub for another volley. So a Dev squad with 4 multi meltas and a cherub is 175 pts for 10 shots (4 shots with +1 to hit) the first time they fire at full strength. They also have access to the Razorback, Rhino or Drop Pod and Erads can only go in a Repulsor or outflank for a similar effect.

If you bring strats into it you can spend CP to count as not having moved to get rid of the movement penalty. Erads get the benefit of transhuman phys but T4 and T5 are probably still going to get deleted in the current meta after they've made their presence felt so either delivery is probably going to die after 1 or 2 rounds of shooting.

If you bring chapter abilities into it Ultras should always take Devs. They don't care about moving with heavies in turn 2 and 3. Iron Hands also in T1 for a drop pod strike. Raven Guard can use them to absolutely nuke and characters with +1 to hit and wound after putting them in deep strike although admittedly much less useful these days with fewer big characters being taken outside of Daemons.

[cmleibenguth]

Intercessor vs Tac Marine: agreed
Eradicator, Hellblaster, Heavy Intercessor vs Devastator: Tough call. Primaris.
Assault Intercessor vs Vets: i'd give it to the vets
Bladeguards vs Terminators: Terminators (disagree on the Bladeguard)
Bikes: The primaris ones. Their output is so insane even if they are a tad squishier.
Captains: Buffbot = Primaris; Smash (even if nerfed) = Firstborn

[thgsMASK]

FYI, instead of filiming from the front and having the speakers sometimes look at each other, sometimes at the camera and sometimes in between the two off into space, you should stand or sit looking towards each other so you can easily look at the other; and have three cameras, one for each of you and one in the middle for the intro and outro etc.

I understand budget it a constraint but its just a suggestion.

[Corneliusoco]

My army consists of both primaris and firstborn I always send out my outriders then push my first born marines out to keep the enemy busy once my first born died or made a big dent in there army I send my primaris squads out to either help or take the place of my first borns and to this day it always worked really Wel my army is worthles without my first borns ESPECIALLY my terminators

[redleg]

I think Blood Angel Vanguard Vets with power swords and storm shields will be really good. Strength 5 with +1 to wound on the charge means wounding MEQs on 2s and even T8 on 4s, with excellent AP.

[ricardoalonso]

Im all about that Bladeguard Life. Those models are the only reason Im making a SM army.