John MacArthur on Mental Illness: This is Bad Theology

In this video Gavin Ortlund responds to John MacArthur's recent comments that there is no such thing as mental illness.

Gavin Ortlund (PhD, Fuller Theological Seminary) is President of Truth Unites and Theologian-in-Residence at Immanuel Nashville.

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00:00 Introduction
03:35 1) Mental Illness Denial Hurts People
08:58 2) Our Need For Common Grace
13:23 Pastoral Counsel
16:12 No Mental Illness in Heaven

[timrodriguez]

I envy people who could casually say mental illness isn’t real, they’re blessed to never have experienced it…

[swimmerfish]

There's very much two extremes here. I was struggling with depression and anxiety that was related to childhood trauma and ADHD. I needed the medication for a season because I simply did not know how to cope with how I was feeling. However, eventually the medication was holding me back from actually getting better because ssris are not usually a good long-term solution. It's so frustrating that when you go to the world, so many doctors just want to medicate you indefinitely. But then when you go to the church, there's a stigma around any kind of medication. Thankfully, I am off my ssris and so thankful for the ways I found to help cope with depression. However, I'm still on my ADHD medication because it genuinely helps me and my day-to-day life. When there's no nuance with these things, people suffer.

[Princeton_James]

As a Christian mental health therapist who attends Grace CC, John clarified his statement this past sunday in church. He didn't change his stance but he did claritfy himself. His argument seems to be equally about his mental health diagnosis and the misuse/abuse of medication. I dont disagree 100% but i also dont agree 100%. In my experience as a clincian I see far too many clients who seem to wear their diagnosis as a sense of pride. Casually talking about all the things they cant do or how difficult life is be8of anxiety or depression. Step one is to learn how to break free from this forever patient mentality. Changing the way you talk about your condition is a huge first step.

[bmide]

As someone who suffers from OCD, I cannot imagine how harmful it would have been if I had had my mental illness onset while in a context like MacArthur's that denies the reality of mental illness, or OCD.

It is amazing to me that very conservative Christians, who have an incredibly thick doctrine of the Fall, are so often closed to the idea that the Fall has impacted the human brain as it has every other aspect of the world.

[caroldonaldson]

The Gospel According to John (Macarthur): 'Just Straighten Up & Fly Right'!

An abusive childhood isn't something to be 'shaken off' or 'just gotten over' - the aftershock continues to resound throughout a life now hobbled by scars & memories God never ever intended His child to know (I speak from experience, as many here will too). Mr MacArthur seems to speak from the lofty moral high ground of one who either didn't experience these things or is in denial - either way, blundering into the complex pain & suffering of others with such cavalier insensitivity while his audience laughs along with him is deeply regrettable and surely worthy of a public apology - I won't hold my breath.😢

[preacher]

My pastor when I was extremely depressed told me I need therapeutic help and he told me of some good therapists. Thanks to that I got better and have made my life immensely better! MacArthur’s speech is so shocking to me because every church I have attended believes in mental and physical health treatment.

[JillCee]

I have been diagnosed with Cptsd. I can honestly say that it is not about grief or how we focus our minds. I have done a lot of gratitude work. There is a need for healing of my spirit and mind due to many many factors in my life. What is sad is in my effort to seek solutions, there has been a deep negative impact on me by trying to seek God at church. A lot of gaslighting, shaming and manipulation. Was anyone prayer for me? Nope. They were judging me. For a long time, I actually thought God hated me. Fortunately, now I realize that is not the case. I actually do pray for their eyes to be opened because of Matt 25:33-46.

[RevHighway]

For myself, all other veterans who suffer with PTSD, and all victims of trauma who suffer with this ... John MacArthur should get to experience about a week inside our heads! Unfortunately he is wrong on his assessment of mental health issues. As an ordained minister of over 30 years with a degree focused on physiological psychology... and ... being a veteran who suffers from PTSD ... I can say this with confidence. When he spends a week or so with dreams that make him dive out of bed at three o'clock in the morning or that wake him up in cold sweat screaming in such a way it scares the entire house ... or ... has to sleep with the TV on so he doesn't hear every creak and snap in the house at night to where he is on high alert and his wife has to move her bed to another room .... then he can talk about PTSD and mental health issues.

[GnosticInformant]

much respect man. As someone who has struggled with mental health issues for my entire life that led me into prisons and rehabs, it is really refreshing to see a Christian like yourself stand up against bad theology like this that could be dangerous. thanks.

[jimbruner]

As a believing Christian for almost 50 years and a professional counselor for the last 30, thank you so much for this video.

[pappywinky]

As someone who lives with borderline personality disorder, adhd and everything that is brought by these conditions, I can't express how painful it is to be told that kind of thing. It's also a profound discouragement as a Christian because you feel you're not safe and allowed to be sick in the most important community you can have. You end up suffering alone and in silence.

[jordanpease]

Thank you Dr. Orlund! My wife is one of the most faithful women I have ever met but through on unholy combination of abuse suffered as a child and hormone imbalance perimenopause, her mental health can take strong dives. Her faith keeps her grounded no matter how she feels in the moment but it doesn't and can't just make her not feel it. Your acknowledgment of this is what we need more of in the church!

[brianetheredge]

I was raised by a man who suffered from multiple mental illnesses in the 70's/80's. My father didn't get diagnosed until after I graduated from high school.

I'd love to have a chat with John Macarthur about mental illness...about before and after Dad found out he was sick, and what my "sinful" father did to adjust and function on heavy medication. When I hear pastors speak like this flippantly, without addressing the lives of the families of these afflicted souls, it infuriates me to my core.

God can heal illness, even mental illness. Does God always heal mental illness...no, and I've seen first-hand what sin does in a family system dominated by mental illness. I strongly believe that God allows us to endure great, unrecognized hardships to teach us to walk with Him, to depend on Him for everything, to grow closer to Him in this life.

Thanks for speaking out about this, Gavin...countless millions suffer directly or indirectly as a result of shaming people who suffer with mental illness. We need to come alongside them, not use them as "object lessons" from afar.

[timffoster]

True, the brain is a physical organ and can be broken. The spirit is not a physical organ, but it too can be broken. What do we do with a mental professional who misdiagnoses a spiritual condition as a mental condition? (serious question)

As christians, we should be the first to realize that a professional who doesn't have a category for "spiritual illness" is wholly unqualified to help someone struggling, regardless of the university degrees and mind-altering meds they bring to the table: they are unable to differentiate between the two.

With that in mind, there is much to be said about diagnosing "mental health", or why, for example, depression skyrockets among girls who use social media. (if we really think that meds is the right prescription for girls who imbibe social media, then we're not understanding the problem, the solution, or the human condition. ...even if the meds do make you feel better)


More work needs to be done in this area, especially by those who understand that "spiritual illness" is more pervasive than "mental illness".

[sunblaze]

I have seen mental health denial and hesitancy destroy people. This is a very important topic that the church desperately needs to not fail people in.

[lindsaysimplified]

As someone who has a mom with a history of severe mental illness I so appreciate this.

[richardusgravis]

Thank you. I'm a mental health provider who works exclusively with Christian workers and I appreciate your wise (and accurate) response.

[WilliamMcEntee]

I have a god friend who suffered from bi-polar issues. He would start skipping sleep, solving all the world's problems, and 2 wees later be collected by police with butterfly nets at 2AM. Then he would receive medication that balanced him. He married a wonderful woman who would not let him skip his medication. As a result, he was able the live a good long life, become a father and grandfather, be a loving husband. Psychiatry has been abused often, but there have been breakthroughs in medicine that are real, and we should not forget that.

[ChristOurLifeMinistries]

"Its like telling someone who has a broken leg, just think positive and keep running." 6:42. Thanks for the video Gavin!

[heatherw.]

Your response was so helpful and accurate. I am a born again Christian, and I happen to have bad panic attacks that get triggered by speaking in public, including being put on the spot to pray or speak at prayer meetings. I take a medication that helps and because of it, I am able to attend meetings instead of avoiding them (because of vomiting from nerves), and am able to teach Sunday school, speak in front of large crowds at church etc...At one point, I told the women at my womans ministry group I attended, that I wanted them to stop asking me to open in prayer because I had panic attacks and was getting physically ill before meetings and avoiding coming. (This was before medication). Well, these women made me feel like it was my fault for having no faith and that if I had enough faith I wouldn't be afraid. Two leader women who kept saying this both walked bent over with canes and limps. So I asked them, "what if every time you came to church you knew you might be forced to throw down your cane and run fast around the church. And if you refused, it must br because you had no faith. Would you want to go to church? Wouldn't you feel dread and anxiety over the physical pain and torture you were being asked to face week after week???? How much would ypu want to do that???" They finally got it and stopped putting me on the spot without asking if I was comfortable. The brain is an organ, and it gets sick too, just like you said. I'm also a trained mental health counselor and worked years with people with these illnesses that John dismissed. John has an arrogant and judgemental attitude. The truth is that he sees people with mental illness as WEAK and looks down on them. He is a bit of a snob when it comes to his own intelligence and accomplishment, and has become judgement of those he deems to not be as strong mentally as he THINKS he is. Sad. Thinking himself wise, he became a fool about this topic. 😮