LDS historian: Be ready, the Church is changing

In this episode, Latter-day Saint historian Ben Spackman talks about change in the Church — past, present, and future.

0:00 Intro
3:14 Church & Scholarship from 1900 - Now
5:35 Church & Scholarship 1950 - 1990
7:11 Church & Scholarship 1990 - Now
10:00 Information vs Revelation
15:07 Elder Ballard, Cook, & human expertise
19:06 Correcting the Sweetwater River story
23:36 The Gospel Topics Essays
25:45 Heart AND mind
28:14 A period of unlearning
32:00 Being OK with change
35:54 What makes prophets special?
40:35 Institutionally working through complexity

[corydrichmond]

“God left the world unfinished for man to work his skill upon. He left the electricity in the cloud, the oil in the earth. He left the rivers unbridged and the forests unfelled and the cities unbuilt. God gives to man the challenge of raw materials, not the ease of finished things. He leaves the pictures unpainted and the music unsung and the problems unsolved, that man might know the joys and glories of creation.” Thomas S Monson

[jacoblines]

I love Captain Moroni's approach in Alma 43. He asked the prophet for revelation AND still sent out spies to watch the enemy.

[shawnbrigance]

As a Catholic convert, this is one of my favorite podcasts, using reason, guided by the Holy Spirit. Thank you

[winonadavies]

I have to admit that I have multiple strong reservations about Ben's discussion. I AM college educated with a Master's degree. My BA is in history and philosophy. My Master's is as a Mental Health Clinician. One big reservation I have is that history is research in the primary documents but largely assigning meaning to those sources. I'm glad we have the Joseph Smith Papers but don't necessarily agree with the "experts" on the interpretation or meaning of what's in the primary sources. I also understand that the historians perspective determines what sources are included in any study or book.
I'm also old enough at 66 to recognize that the "experts" are almost always found to be wrong in some aspect by new "experts" as time goes by, who are then also shown to be wrong by even newer experts. Despite Ben's assertion, a PhD is no reason to trust someone's opinion on interpretation of information, or for that matter, on what the information even IS.

[truthfromearth]

Homework absolutely is necessary. "But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right"; "seek learning, even by study and also by faith” (D&C 88:118)

Dallin H Oaks: “The methods of science lead us to what we call scientific truth. But “scientific truth” is not the whole of life. Those who do not learn “by study and also by faith” (Doctrine and Covenants 88:118) limit their understanding of truth to what they can verify by scientific means. That puts artificial limits on their pursuit of truth.” (Truth and the Plan)

[Matilda]

I had two experiences, one I was giving a talk and the other I was teaching a class. One when giving a talk I mentioned something and the Holy Ghost whispered to me saying”that’s your opinion” I felt so bad for a longest time buy later learned that He just reminded me that I should prepare well and make as much research as I can bearing in mind that what I speak someone else might use incorrectly or hold on to it

[truthfromearth]

"No truth ever came into the heart of man except by the power of the Holy Ghost" - M. Russell Ballard

[pinecones]

Great presentation! President Nelson asked us in April 2024 General Conference to study D & C section 109, the Kirtland Temple dedicatory prayer. I was impressed, once again, by verse 7 and 8 the "out of the best books, words of wisdom". Many years ago, (I am 82 years old), my 7 young children and I selected these 2 verses for a year long FHE study, focusing on the influence of a foundation of prayer, scriptures, counsel from the brethern, and good books would help us create a house of order, prayer, God, etc (vs 8). Each week in FHE we took an individual area and focused 1st on learning about it and then created action plans over a month or two to execute it into our daily living to create habits. Now about 50 years later, my kids still talk about that years growth.

[lukedriscoll]

To be learned is good if they hearken to the counsel of God.

That’s the key and I am grateful that we are seeing the restitution of all things coming in our real time!!

[effervescentrelief]

Remember the Prophet's counsel yesterday, he said (not an exact quote) to study the talks of Conference and they will be a litmus test to show you what is true for the next six months. Inspired counsel as always.

[PatrickTLowe]

The concern I have associated with this topic is the pecking order that is being set up. Academic interpretation is good, AND it is subordinate to the authority of God... Not the other way around. I have been in academia for a long time and I have never ceased to be amazed when I hear a comment made by an inspired man later come to be right when academia caught up. Indeed, it is good to understand a wide variety of topics shallowly and a small group of topics deeply, but revelation is real and cannot be discounted so lightly. When I hear this guest talking, it seems as though he is putting academia above the brethren, and everything should run through his cadre before it gets published. Although he spoke with a lot of truth, I think his conclusions are trending in a risky direction.

[truthfromearth]

What I gather is that Ben Spackman is saying that we should be intensely curious and investigative, but this needs to be tempered by an acknowledgement that the prophets are completely free to set us straight at any time. The eye of faith and revelation is greater than the eye of reason. We say that good inspiration is based on good information, but the symbiosis in the other direction is even stronger: Reason requires revelation to work with--otherwise all inferences would be mere speculation, based on insecure premises.

[hpagalla]

stay in the BOAT.... hold on to the Living Prophets and Apostles.... Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge Him, and He shall direct your paths. ~Proverbs 3:5-6

[KylonRic]

I’ve been cautious of this guest speaker ever since I heard his dissertation was on the topic of LDS being in danger and needing to repent. The prophet calls us to repentance, not academia.

That mixed with an ideology that seems to say the church NEEDS academia and modern “experts” to function rather than the other way around, sounds like he’s setting up for an argument to push the church in the direction he and other academia authorities think it should go.

Christ is at the head of the church. He calls men and women in their weakness. Christ doesn’t need to pick the most educated to be a prophet or an apostle, He really just wants the most humble

[StandforTruth]

I have read through many of the Topics and Questions articles and clicked on the "reliable" sources that are supposedly provided. I'm sorry but when the "reliable" source cited is someone' s Master's or Phd dissertation out of University of Utah or BYU, I throw it out. I have too often found that academics are prone to confirmation bias or cherry-picking of the historical record to fit their narrative. In their "research" they are also prone to cite their fellow academics who have done the same. I have also found some links to reliable sources fail to open to the actual document from which they were clipped. Upon finding the original source document, I have discovered that had the clip been presented in its entirety, it would have refuted the claim the "unbiased" historian was trying to make.

We need to recognize, when reading the publications of academics regarding Church history, from Ensign articles to the Saints series, that far too often the academics have embraced second-hand hearsay accounts, often recorded up to decades later, over contemporary first hand accounts, even those of Joseph Smith, himself, as well Oliver Cowdery with whom he collaborated, regarding for example, Book of Mormon translation and geography. "Scholars" too often have dismissed, discounted or ignored what JS and Oliver Cowdery explicitly claimed because it has been determined that they were confused or didn’t have enough information to know what they were talking about. After all JS was only tutored by the Angel Moroni and received direct revelation from God; and after all, we need to trust the academics over the prophet of the restoration because the scholars have creditialed degrees from our finest institutions.

It's also important to note that when reading the publications of "the experts, " that far too often they present their assumptions and interpretations of the historical record as fact. It is important to read the conclusions of several authors that are not only in agreement with each other but of those who are also in disagreement, while being leary of claims by those who hate the Church.

There are faithful LDS historians (not just in name only) inside and outside, of academia, who have come to different conclusions regarding the same historical documents and there are also those who have dug deeper, uncovering documents that have never been considered or those that have been pushed aside as irrelevant when analyzing narratives that have gone against the history we once embraced as a church for over 150 years or more. Far too many of the historians of our new Church history have readily accepted every source at face value without scrutiny. I hope you don't think I'm being to harsh here but sometimes the truth hurts and needs to be said.

The answer to understanding our sometimes messy and uncomfortable history is for academics and other historians to be forthright in admitting that their findings are only their assumptions and interpretations based on the resources they chose to highl ight and let their readers decide.

[Not_so_greatScott]

The problem is many in the credentialed “trust the expert” class have proven themselves untrustworthy.

[HikeRx]

Sometimes "the experts" are completely wrong, especially in the social sciences.

[TheHamptonPlace]

Some things that undermine trust in experts are:

Politicians using the “consensus of experts” to curtail constitutional liberties (freedom of speech, assembly) or to push agendas.

Telling people that men can be women or vice versa and actually giving sterilizing drugs and surgeries to accomplish said “truths”.

Telling us to “trust the science” is fine and I do trust science but view science as a tool and some people using tools are dangerous people because of their lack of honesty, courage, and anti-human worldview.

[AnnaBellaChannel]

The church's program has undergone many adjustments in the last five years. "People don't need to be educated, but they need to be reading." This quote is paradoxical. To read is to become educated.