Q or Q+? Did Luke Use Matthew? | Dr. Dennis MacDonald Versus Dr. Bruce Chilton

In this livestream, Professor Dennis MacDonald and Professor Bruce Chilton will be debating on which version of Q is the correct reconstruction, the Critical Edition of Q or Q+ and did Luke use Matthew? Bruce will be defending the Critical Edition of Q and that Luke did not use Matthew and both were written independently of one another whereas Dennis will be defending his version of Q he calls Q+ and will posit the position that Luke did actually use Matthew.

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𝕏Twitter: @Jacob56723278

[Kingdho]

This is why I just supported the GoFundMe for this channel and as many of us should as well. These types of conversations are elite, gourmet, if you will, presentations.

[irreview]

That thumbnail is worth its weight in gold.

[terrysutton]

Good civil discussion. A lot to think about.

[GeldardtheGrey]

Really great discussion, Jacob, and some very useful information from both your speakers.

[baarbacoa]

I would have guessed they'd have many more differences and less commonality in their views.

[EdwardM-tp]

Pull the plug on Q. It's either Thomas, or Marcion, Matthew, and/or Luke, or just a bunch of ancient version of post-it notes.

[Dybbouk]

I seem to recall Vinzent and the others dismissing the Aramaic passages as much late redactions

[slicktrickyes]

Can we give up the ghost on "Q", like turtles all the way down, it's Thomas, it's Thomas all the way down.

[sparrowthesissy]

The real question to me is If the Q chunk of Luke, that's more scattered in Matthew, is after 70 or 130 CE. If it is responding to the failure of Bar Kokbha, a Marcionite origin seems plausible. The rather anti-Jewish tone of Q does make that origin plausible to me. It might be what inspires Matthew to be so against the Jerusalem Jews and Temple, too.

[tony-jnj]

Not only that, Matthew copied 90% of Mark. Luke copied 70% of Mark and also copied Jesus sayings that Matthew had created in his gospel. The latter gets labeled by the scholarship as "Q" - the mysterious lost gospel.

[richardfellows]

Dennis. What makes you think that Papias knew Mark's gospel? Papias's "Mark" sounds more like John Mark, the author of John's gospel. Another question: can the commonalities between Papias and Luke-Acts be explained by Papias's geographical proximity to the Aegean churches, for which Luke-Acts was written (as I have argued elsewhere)?

[Thomasw]

If you guys regroup around the premise that everybosy was reading from Quelle and that Quelle was in Latin, your positions will be natrually harmonized.

[akashicturtle]

I used to think Luke used Matt but now I think the reverse is more likely. Still on the fence about q…I do think Luke absorbed an earlier source into his gospel tho.

[steve]

The Q document or source could come from, or be, one person. Like Paul perhaps. Who had recited his beliefs and information about Jesus to his followers while he was alive. Given that Paul knew James and Peter at the least, Paul was likely privy to many details of Jesus's life and teachings as well. Using this acquired information about Jesus, Paul, along with his own experiences and beliefs, formulates the doctrine/stories that would become known as Q. Paul preaches his doctrine and the acompanying details to his followers. After Paul's death, some of these educated followers, who could speak and write Greek, started to develop the Synoptic gospels. Based on their own memories of Paul's teachings and also any written communications that Paul had distributed to them over his ministry period. Because some of these followers received not totally the same information from Paul, or remembered things the same, the gospels would have similarities and discrepancies. Each author including or excluding details and stories based on info they had available, or decided to borrow from others (like the info borrowed from Mark). Some of the authors may have even added some personal beliefs into the mix as well. The reason for thinking Paul's Greek speaking followers as they would be intent on cementing Paul's views of Christ as opposed to those of James, et al, and gnostic type views. It may have even been Paul's hope that some of his followers would do exactly that. Write down all he had taught them about Jesus plus his experiences as well.

[jeffreyerwin]

In Luke 11 Jesus is recoded as saying that his ministry would be the ONLY sign that Israel would receive, and he called his ministry the Sign of Jonah.
In Matthew 12 Jesus was asked for "A sign from you." Here Jesus said nothing about his ministry. Instead, he predicted that his burial would be for less than 72 hours, and he called this short duration of burial the Sign of Jonah.
The comparison of these two definitions of the Sign of Jonah suggests that St. Luke did not base his account on what Matthew wrote.
For those interested in how the two descriptions of the Sign of Jonah can be resolved, see:
"The Enigma of the Sign of Jonah, " BSTS Shroud Newsletter, Summer 2023.

[dominiqueubersfeld]

Q+ or QAnon? Did Trump Use Tucker Carlson?