Was Rust In The Linux Kernel A Mistake?

There has been drama around Rust in Linux since the very beginning, but this recently came to a head with a situation where one of the major contributors to rust for linux decided to retire from the project citing some non technical drama.

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#Linux #Rust #OpenSource #FOSS #LinuxKernel

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[PhilfreezeCH]

Even ignoring the Rust aspect, you have some people saying „could you please document what args your function accepts, what it does with memory so people know how to use it?“

And the current maintainer answering „nah, I don‘t feel like documenting my code“.

Why are we even talking about this, it should obviously be documented. Be it as Rust syntax or as a poem written in a separate text file.

[otterlord]

The only true solution is to rewrite it in JavaScript

[BrentMalice]

this never wouldve happened if they just chose Holy C instead. demon safety > memory safety

[emilyhelms-tippit]

I feel like if some people want the kernel to be all Rust, and some want it to contain no Rust, the answer is clear: every even line of source code is C, every odd line is Rust.

[jor_r]

Boomers vs. furries. Linux community in a nutshell these days.

[basilefff]

I don't know anything about developing in kernel space, but it seems to me that if most DRM drivers encounter bugs because of undocumented code and difficult to track lifetimes then it really isn't Rust in Linux issue, it is kernel API issue, Rust is just forcing everyone to clearly define things, which seems like a good thing to me.

[gokhanersumer]

"I refuse to document my code because it may change!"
Its a great mindset, if you're building a castle of cards.

[Topher_Knows]

I left the Rust project because of the toxicity from a small group of developers. If anything, we need to out compete Python in the tool space, not fight with C on anything. Certainly not get upset that a LONG established project doesn't just hand their keys over to you, because that is absolute arrogance, something OSS projects are bad at hiding, but WORK VERY HARD on mitigating so we can form necessary relationships.

I feel bad for the kernel developers that have dedicated years of their lives to amending the kernel to be more memory safe. It's there, it's not true C, however you have the philosophical benefit of Rust IN THE KERNEL NOW, *and it's only improving*, the idea is winning as far as improving the kernel. So the divisive Rust programmers and developers(not all, this is a small group) need to refocus and stop trying to turn this into a fanboy argument. Relax, quit the tantrum, and don't rage throughout the internet to the point that new generations get turned off.

[enofisenoff]

Linus Torvalds ignited and organized the largest collaborative effort in human history. My favorite Linus quote is: "So start small, and think about the details. Don’t think about some big picture and fancy design. If it doesn’t solve some fairly immediate need, it’s almost certainly over-designed." IMHO this sets the whole hullabaloo.

[diametheuslambda]

This all sounds like "But ma, I don't _wanna_ document how my code behaves. You can't make me." And that's not a sound filling me with confidence for a complex, critical project that needs to coordinate thousands of people.

[tato-chip]

I remember when microkernels were the thing that would kill monolithic kernels.
No linux won over unix due to a combination of luck, the license and the fact that it was free unix.

[liarus]

All i see on the video:"Hello, can you please explain how we are supposed to interact with~"


"YOU WILL NOT FORCE ME TO USE RUST!"

[ZeroUm_]

Imagine trying to document an API and being attacked for it.

[CupoChinoMusic]

Developers intentionally making other developers' lives a living hell for job security. Tale as old as time

[LightTheMars]

I had to skip forward through Tso's rant. And it was still longer than I expected.
And then he interrupted him with more!

[jonnyso]

The presenter: "We're not trying to force anyone to write Rust and we aren't trying to stop anyone from refactoring code, we're encoding things in Rust the way they are done in C"
The emotional dude: "STOP TRYING TO FORCE US TO LEARN THE RUST RELIGION !"

That would get very tiring after a while indeed.

[tato-chip]

let's be real: everyone knows the moment you work on an established codebase and you try to retrofit a new language on to it you get issues.

[guyblack]

They should just propose Haskell in the kernal to get everyone mad and make Rust in the kernal sound nicer

[michaelbuckers]

A common thread with Rust developers is that they come over even though nobody asked, say your software sucks and you must fix it, and best case scenario they offer weird patches that do absolutely nothing but allow them to use Rust more easily. And when they're told to take a walk, they act like they are the ones getting wronged. Also a lot of them are furries or otherwise mentally unwell.

[LarixusSnydes]

Whether in C comments or in Rust, good documentation is crucial for maintainability, security and auditability of code written.
I'm not versed well enough in Rust to decide for myself whether Rust can provide all the functionality that C provides.
If the majority of severe security errors in kernel code stem from memory issues that Rust doesn't have, than that is a good argument for using Rust.
What I am worried about is that too much energy (and eventually people) will be lost to Linux kernel development because of an unwillingness to cooperate and discuss things rationally without too much emotion and ego getting in the way of things.