Jonathan McLatchie vs Jonathan Pearce: Do extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence?

'Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence' is often used as a maxim by skeptics against modern miracle claims and Biblical miracles.

Christian apologist Jonathan McLatchie and atheist blogger Jonathan Pearce debate the 'prior probabilities' involved in miracle claims and the evidence for the resurrection.

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[melissaschubert]

I am a born again Christian, so of course, I agreed with many things that JM said, But it was so interesting listening to JP also, mainly because he was such a kind, straightforward, and respectful person, making it a joy to hear his perspective as well - loved this!

[davethebrahman]

Thank you Mr Brierley for a return to form. Great show with great guests. If only such shows could be longer; but in any case it is very nice of you to provide such excellent content for free.

[say..]

Thanks for hosting this debate. I recently discovered A Tippling Philosopher and really enjoy his content.

[st]

This is a prime example of so many debates - it's easy to throw out a dozen arguments against an idea, but it often takes a lot of time to deconstruct them. JP spit out a ton of objections, but each objection would take an hour discussion just to get into. Not saying JP was being dishonest or just using a debate trick, it's just the nature of the format. That's why debates like this need to be hyper focused on one very specific issue to make any progress.

[reluctantrenegade]

I was sick in my mouth when jm claimed 'argument from silence' on the complete lack of attestation of zombie saints, hours of darkness, earthquake and curtain rip. This point alone showed me he isnt taking this seriously and is just propping up existing belief which is tethered to hope, meaning and purpose

[dharmadefender]

I rose from the dead last weekend and I heard my great grandmother did it once too. I think it runs in the family.

[zengfukushang]

I'm sorry but Dr McL was as hopeless as usual. Still, he probably helped to create some more atheists, so there's that...

[MaloneDunlavy]

What great guests, the both of them, . While I disagree with one, they were both massively respectful and staying on point, etc. I really appreciated this interaction. :)

[JoseChung]

Justin your show needs to be twice as long please - happy new year to you and the team.

[questioneveryclaim]

McLatchie said, "In principal a miracle is an event in which it stands out from normal course of nature and therefore the fact that a miracle deviates from a normal course of nature it can't be used as evidence against a miracle when defined as special divine action or as an authenticating sign." Do extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence? If you're a skeptic, yes. If you agree with the above statement then no. The above statement is non-falsifiable and equivalent to saying "God" said so.

[ethanstiles]

Jonathan (MS Pearce) did an excellent job

[philstilwell]

it would be great to have more episodes dedicated to epistemology!

[RyanEhli-MusicAndGuitar]

JonathanM appears to display strong biases by saying literally whatever needs to be said to try rationalizing christian causes for ALL events in reality. I believe his methods for determining truth r INCONSISTENT.
I try to acknowledge my own biases when commenting on someone else's: I'm a secular humanist naturalist.

[alexpearl]

Love your podcasts now a member of Christian Premier radio too thanks so much for all your work Justin

[williambillycraig]

I thought Jonathan Pearce did a fine job; my main issue with his statements is when he said no "serious scholar" believes that the Messiah is spoken of in the Old Testament. His statement cannot be false because any Old Testament scholar that disagrees with this statement is not a "real Hebrew scholar." I can make the same statement and say no "real scientist" believes in Neo-Darwinian evolution. Who could prove me wrong? All I would need to do is throw out my "she is not a real scientist" card.

It reminds me of the old Arabic saying, "give me a wise man, and I can convince him I am right, give me a fool, but I would never be able to convince him." I think this is called poisoning the well; anyone who disagrees with Pearce after that statement would be the fool.

At this point, the conversation should have stopped. In its place, a detailed discussion between the two on this issue should have been scheduled.

I had a few other issues with Pearce, but I thought overall he did well.

[emilymorales]

At 1:08:55 Dr. McClatchie mentioned the “historical argument of silence, ” and that Dr. McGrew wrote a paper on this. Would be great to access that link! That was an excellent response from JM!

Excellent discussion, learned a lot. Thank you!

[offgrid]

Great debate. I look forward to more of these, going into the things that had to be sidelined because of time. Justin is a very fair moderator, even though in essence he 'sides' with JM.
Thanks to all. Very entertaining and interesting.

[theaviationist.]

It was so frustrating Jonathan M just engaging in his own confirmation bias.
Dismisses all the other religions claims but then gives his own Christian claims a pass on the exact samr claims..
I have watched so many of these debates that I now think each theist does not care about objectivity, Facts, evidence etc. All they care about looking for any way to strengthen their already preconceived beliefs. Looking for evidence to confirm what they already want to believe. It’s not going where the evidence takes them, but leading the evidence where they want it to where they want it to point..
Very frustrating and comed off as very dishonest in my opinion..
😳🤷‍♂️

[jeff]

I'm adding this to my favorites. Fantastic talk.

[chindi]

Loved this discussion. In my view JP makes a better argument than JM. I am a Christian. However, i have become really frustrated with the Apologetic enterprise of rationalizing everything in attempt to win the arguments. I thought we Christians were called to be Christ's witnesses not win arguments. I prefer Intellectual honesty even if it means losing the argument to a skeptic or Atheist. I am not the only one. There are other Christians who are as frustrated as I am. One gentleman I forgot his name who is in Peru and was on your program, Justin.
We Christians believe that Jesus resurrection because of faith not some objective evidence. I think (may be I am wrong) the goal of Apologists is to make other Christians so they can make these arguments in front of Skeptics. But in my view it makes Christians look more foolish and self righteous.The idea that you can say just assign arbitrary numbers to probalistic claims. No you cannot.
The claim we Christians make is that Jesus died, resurrected and did not die again. In fact most Christians believe he ascended into heaven with the same body he resurrected with and he is still alive today with that body. How can you seriously provide evidence for that. And i have read apologetic books they start from conclusion and then rationalize.Look that requires faith. You cannot in anyway objectively or historically prove the resurrection happened. And I have read books by William Lane Craig, Sean McDowell and others. I begun to realize I was wasting time to put it bluntly.
It is faith that keeps us Christians as Hebrews Chapter 11 states.
The miracles Craig Keener claims can indeed be attributed to other causes. The best argument for Christianity is a simple one. We have faith that Jesus died and resurrected. It is faith only that's it, not objective evidence of the kind JM was talking about.
If we take the approach of faith only we can completely understand JP's position and learn why he is skeptical. We can even humbly listen to his views which i do. It makes sense why he and my brother for example are very atheist for example.
We Christians require extraordinary evidence from other faiths.
I will end with a story of my Uncle as an example who told us that he and his friend were over 200 miles away and were going to be late for boarding school in then Northern Rhodesia (Now Zambia). In those days if late you were severely punished. However, a friend had an idea. They removed their clothes and in seconds they were at a boarding school. Apparently his friend had powers to summon the ancestors for extraordinary help. Do you really believe this story?
I thought either my uncle was delusional or just made it up. That is JP's point and it is sound.