The Grieving Brain with Mary-Frances O'Connor | Being Well Podcast

There’s a lot of loss in the world these days, both in our individual lives and in our broader communities, and with those losses comes grief. Grief is one of the most challenging emotions to be with, and it can be difficult to offer generalized advice because everyone's experience of grief is profoundly unique.

On today’s episode of Being Well, I am joined by one of the world’s leading researchers on grief, Dr. Mary-Frances O’Connor, to help us better understand grief and grieving. We explore why grief is such a unique and intense emotion, how grief works in the brain, the problems with generalized models like the “five stages of grief,” and how we can learn to live with loss.

About Our Guest: Mary-Frances is a neuroscientist, clinical psychologist, and associate professor of psychology at the University of Arizona, where she directs the Grief, Loss and Social Stress Lab, which investigates the effects of grief on the brain and the body. She’s also the author of the wonderful book The Grieving Brain: The Surprising Science of How We Learn from Love and Loss.

Key Topics:
0:00 Introduction and disclaimer
3:35 Mary-Frances’ personal background
6:55 Distinguishing grief from grieving
9:20 Self-criticism and overfocus on recovery
11:30 Changing how we frame grief as something to get over
13:15 Attachment and our neurological map
17:40 Prediction error
20:00 Complicated grief
25:40 Spiritual practice or a worldview that incorporates death
27:55 Is there a ‘normal’ grieving process?
35:25 Pathology and normal human experience
46:25 Neurological overview of grief in the brain
51:00 The Dual Process Model of Grief
54:20 Sometimes distraction is okay
57:20 Therapeutic practices and learning from grief
1:02:00 Grief and its relationship to love
1:04:50 Recap

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[chilloften]

The book…”It’s ok that you’re not ok” by Megan Divine…is such perfection for dealing with lifelong emotion of grief. I get happy when I listen. It’s beautiful, grief is allowed and normal and lifelong. Hello world, stop denying it or making it abnormal.

[dublingirl]

I wasn’t sure if I wanted to listen to this talk as it’s a subject I avoid most of the time. I’m happy I did. It was a great deep thoughtful discussion. I never felt any anger when my husband passed away in his sleep beside me. I just felt a numbness; felt so confused and lost. He was only 59 and I was 50. Never expected him to die so young. I couldn’t get my head around it. 16 years on now, I am doing fine. It seemed to take a long time to heal. Thanks so much for this great message. 🙏🏻

[LeahZerbib]

Thank you so much for this podcast. It gave me a place to be . My dad passed away three weeks ago 😢. I can't stop crying 😭

[sweesuri]

Lost our sons 25 years ago. The grief has never ended

[tammyb]

In 2007 I lost my beloved cat of 15 years not quite unexpectedly but suddenly and as my animals are my everything I took it really poorly because I didn't have any tools to deal with it.
Fast forward to 5 weeks ago when I lost my beloved pup of 15 years. I read everything I could to try and prepare myself for the grief so I could handle it better and it has helped. Being incredibly grateful for having him, for being able to see it coming and for making an effort to be present with him has helped. However I call the grief over him The Obsidian Chasm because right now it's endless and I think it will be there in some form or another for a long, long time. And I'm at peace with that.
Grief is trauma and I don't hear people say that very often. It was traumatic to make the decision of euthanasia for my dog and the dying process itself was traumatic. Also leading up to the inevitable end I grieved for probably the last 2 years and I'm not sure if that kind of grieving has a specific name or not. I am wondering if it's possible to have a discussion on the trauma of grief and euthanasia in pets and how to cope with that.
This is only the third podcast of yours that I have listened to you but I am so happy to have found your channel and look forward to listening to more!

[tomsparks]

O'Connor's work is ground breaking. This book helped me SO MUCH after the death of my husband in early 2022. The book is scientific but very comprehensible. Grief is a real neurological and physical affect that is normal and non-linear.

[karenlewkowitz]

Big props to Forrest, the depth and questions -and quality of voice and sound. A pleasure to listen

[heatherrochellelux]

I have been having prolonged grief for 3 years now and have been in therapy and quit my job. I absolutely bawled when you talked about how it’s hard to let yourself heal or be okay/happy? There is a heavy feeling of guilt when good emotions are felt, like it means I didn’t care enough or love enough? It’s awful, your mind takes the love and grief and turns it into something of a monster? I had ocd before the death and a lot, if not most, of my rituals centered around keeping this loved one alive. Deep down you know it’s inevitable. Now that they have passed my ocd ramped up and now revolve around many photos, ashes, belongings. Sometimes it’s comforting other times I feel insane but not enough to not do my routine.
I feel like it’s ruining my memories of them/us. Ugh, I hate it:(
Great podcast though, it was pretty eye opening for me❤️

[vintagegq]

i have the book 'the grieving brain' but have yet to read it. I will now after listening to this. I wish Ms. O'Conner had addressed the loss of a child. To me, this is worse than losing a spouse as a child is part of you. My daughter was murdered, given an OD on purpose to get rid of her. Being bi-polar contributed to her associating with the wrong crowd & self-medicating. Nevertheless, as her mother who devoted 34 years to her upbringing & care, even as an adult, I was totally shocked that this happened, especially the way it did. At first, I was numb, blank, just going thru the motions of planning her death arrangements. Then I became extremely angry which I stayed during the next 1 1/2 years. The anger helped me get thru the process of cleaning out her house & making it ready for sale. The anger was my fuel, so to speak. My husband went in the opposite direction of extreme depression with suppressed rage, with thoughts of getting justice against those involved. We often clashed as we didn't understand each other. I even asked for a divorce. (didn't happen) My family was no help in understanding me. When I wanted to talk about how I felt, I was told to get over it, to stop talking that way as I was upsetting them. They just wanted to enjoy their life as if I didn't matter. I have since found out that I don't. Even my friends didn't call me as they didn't know what to say. (Stupid reason). I have read several books & watched videos of psych doctors in order to understand myself & to cope. After 2 years I am still broken. The depression phase has set in, and I often have breakdown moments. Staying busy helps me forget temporarily. I can't look at her pictures as it's too painful. I have read Ms Kubler-Ross's books and they make a lot of sense. I doubt I will get to the acceptance & peace stage. Maybe you can research parents who have lost children and see how they cope. Thanks

[sallypattilton]

Very easy to connect and follow this discussion of a deep, and difficult subject. The 5 stages of grief by Kubler Ross a trail blazer, was a much deeper and larger study than the readers digest version the publisher put out. Also, her study was based on the grief responses of the dying person— NOT the bereaved. Very nice summary at the end.

[LaceAgeGirl]

Such a positive, gentle and compassionate interview and conversation. I wonder how this conversation could expand to cover people grieving over the prolonged loss of a parent to dementia, watching them suffer physically and mentally over years, seeing their personhood disappear, and grieving the loss of connection even though they are still alive. Also wishing my suffering from watching my Mum suffering would end so the grieving process could begin to resolve, and the guilt for even wanting that.

I also would like to hear more on complex grief, where families have been disfunctional yet there is still grief, mixed with relief, anger, hatred, disappointment and all the pain of coping as a child without resources, knowledge and support.

How very lucky are those people who are grieving the loss of such tender loving experiences with partners, to have had those special relationships for even part of their lives. Not everyone has that special experience of love.

Grief is love and loss of love.

[neilshearing]

This was fascinating... full of incredibly useful insights into grief and grieving. Thank you Forrest, and Mary-Frances O'Connor!👍

[Peace.Beyond.All.Understanding]

Thank you sooo much for this conversation. It was so comforting for me. I’m dealing with a hard break up, and a lot of this felt relevant for me, even though no one’s died (thankfully). Much love

[stevietalk]

Great conversation. What Zi would say about EKR’s work however is YES, she was a trail blazers & much more is known now. However, I’ve read all of EKR’s books and she 1) has always said the 5 stages are often NOT linear … a person can go back, forth, skip & go back again …makes perfect sense. 2) EKR’s subjects weren’t, for the most part, people left behind after one dies - but she interviewed and spoke to and of the actual dying process. Her 1st and more famous book is called “On Death and Dying”. Her interviews with people who were dying were amazing. Often JUST allowing a person to talk, and be HEARD - on their time line.
Thanks for this work - I am one of those who are spiritual and, although don’t want to lose a loved one or die prematurely myself .. death is part of the package of life/living. I try to live, learn everyday to fulfill my soul journey, to have done my best when I get to the end of my life. I will, with love, pass the baton that is my soul on to whoever/whatever physical vessel it inhabits next, hoping it’s journey will be a little LESS tumultuous than mine - because of the learning, healing, and growing i have done. 💪💓🎉

[fionamckay]

A fantastic heartfelt deep dive Forest! Very insightful and steeped in hope and compassion.

[DrPatrickKingsep]

Always interested to hear about grief - such a challenging emotion for sure. Often an emotion we try to run away from or get rid of - but an emotion we need to acknowledge and move through

[robbind]

I wish some podcasts on grief would address how difficult grief is when you've had parents that caused a lot of pain and trauma with their unresolved issues. I was relieved when my toxic parents finally passed away, but rather than finally be released, I was thrown into the most horrific kind of grief. It's hard to find any place that addresses this kind of grief. It's a real missing space in the grief work.

[shirleysiegrist]

This was a great podcast, and I learned quite a bit! A follow up podcast or subject might be grief that is associated with the loss of someone who is still alive. Especially as it pertains to estrangement, grandchildren from their grandparents and the effects on each of these age groups.

[rhythms]

This explains a lot. I woke up this morning listening to this as I fell asleep with youtube still playing. I need this and it’s just miraculously served. I wouldn’t have choose this video myself as I’m not familiar with both the topic and the guest speaker. Thanks 🙏

A bit of my story, I lost my father to cancer in 2017, the following week my boyfriend with whom we’ve had some serious talk about marriage broke up with me after ghosting me after dad got his diagnosis. I’ve been feeling numb and at the same time feeling a great sense of sadness and loss. Less than two years later my brother passed away from an accident. My mother has BPD/NPD kind of mental/emotional disturbance which really made life and family life felt like hell on earth. Only in the past couple of years I learned about my mother’s personality disorder and how her toxicity has been affecting me which leads to more griefs. I’ve been working with a therapist and it has been life saving. I’m not suicidal but I’ve lost that willingness to live life to the fullest, I’ve lost joy, peace and really hating my mother for what she did to her own family. Only recently I got reminded to let myself grief over those losses. Thanks for bringing this topic out in the open.

[rodagrey]

This is helping me since I lost my husband 14 months ago. I was numb for long time and I can't even remember what I did or what I have said someting to somebody. I was lucky I had trusted friends who were there observing me and they knew I was not all there for few months.
I ordered book today on The Grieving Brain and I am looking forward to receiving it.