Democracy at Work - Richard D Wolff

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[rolley]

I recommend everyone tweet, facebook, linkedin this video, get the word out about an alternative to the pain and suffering inflicted by corperate greed!

[irpacynot]

Those "social constructs" were born of nature. You cannot separate the two.

[TheSplashMan]

My point is with that was simply: If you change the society i.e the economic laws etc, you will also change how people see their world.

[GreggTheEgg]

I have asked the website to add a database so that people who are interested in starting a WSDE or co-op can find one another and, if nevessary, find a source of start-up money. This, along with practical advice from people who have started and run other WSDE's can share some of the lessons of their experience. Other information that could be shared are more practical things like what each WSDE has to offer andf what they might be interested in from other WSDE's.

[irpacynot]

If that were solely true, those systems would be unable to come into being in the first place. You're picking a side of the "chicken and the egg" scenario. It's a paradox, and if there truly is a solution, I believe it's one that lay outside the scope of our current spiritual vision. On the plus side, I believe that vision is coming into focus, and it's the reason I stayed tuned to what Wolff and others are discussing.

[pina]

Imagine a world were we are in charge of the means of production !!

[wcropp]

I think you're underestimating the difference democratic workplaces would make, however I agree with you that a market system (at least as we currently know it) will continue to encourage externalization of costs. The problem, though, at least in my mind, is the lack of a practical planning mechanism. We may be able to transition to a communist system for basic necessities, as determined by the community, but many would probably prefer to just pay taxes to a welfare state and continue to do

[wcropp]

The biggest challenge is ensuring the workplaces remain democratic. Just as competition can encourage environmental destruction, it can also encourage vertical integration, growth, wage labor, etc. On the one hand I think workers would prefer a democratic workplace and could out-compete the capitalist model, but there is no guarantee--cooperatives have reverted back to wage labor in the past. How do you prevent this without giving the government too much control is the million dollar question?

[manticvii]

Interesting review, but your missing a couple of important points:

1. Labor itself is a market, which would demand competitive fair wages, instead of primarily an 'external' market pressure such as the stocks value at market. The market pressures would be much more greatly diversified.

2. Syndicalism is about the primary oranization of labor thru unions. Wolff is clearly advocating worker owned business entities, our existing culture of incorporation, as the primary organization of work.

[wcropp]

whatever it is they do all the time, rather than being a farmer, carpenter, etc., half the week/year. The market sucks at some things, but it does communicate information regarding supply and demand very well, and democratic workplaces would be much less likely to outsource their own jobs, pollute their own communities, etc. Worker-ownership gives some of the benefits of traditional socialism, though not all, but it doesn't have any of the downsides, either. Have we simply not figured out how to

[HebaruSan]

On the contrary, those qualities are exactly why we run into problems (and eventually, system failure) when we vest disproportionate power in a small number of individuals, be they greedy boards of directors, fearful shareholders, or lazy, hateful managers. They have every incentive and tendency to abuse their power, and they do. Human nature demands that power be dispersed and democratically accountable.

[monki]

David Schweickart has some thoughts on how to keep the system from reverting, and a more thought out economic theory for economic democracy in general. His book "After Capitalism (New Critical Theory)" is a good read if your interested in this topic.

[TheSplashMan]

@Irpacynot, Those attributes you describe are not some kind of natural human attributes but actually products of our culture and our society. Especially greed and laziness often being mistaken as being something inherent to "human nature". They are social constructs. The current economic system (capitalism) is a major contributor to creating this greedy and lazy behavior. Marx explains this very good when he's talking about "alienation" of the working class.

[wcropp]

democratically plan economic production yet? That's certainly a possibility--continued technological advancement will continue to change what is possible. Nonetheless, though, worker-ownership will get us 50-75% of the way to a democratized economy without having to experiment with anything that is uncertain, as the day-to-day functioning of the economy doesn't change, but rather who is in charge, and who benefits.

[irpacynot]

Cultures, values and beliefs may change and vary. The human condition is the same all over. Can you permanently fix an economy without fundamentally changing the nature of mankind?

[irpacynot]

Sounds great. Too bad it doesn't take into account human nature -- you know, greed, laziness, fear, hate -- all that other good stuff we carry around with us. Making ideas like this stick is going to take an act of nature. The ideas simply can't be secured without an incredible will. That's my belief, anyway.

[bigbucksboer]

There is no "heaven on earth", President Tito of Yugoslavia had worker ownership during his time. It did not workout.

[TheSplashMan]

Do all cultures look the same? Do we all over this planet have the same values and beliefs? According to your logic that would be the case. The very fact that a baby born in the tribes of Papua New Guinea have completely different values than a baby born in the U.S is evidence of the opposite.

[TheSplashMan]

You're really not reading what I'm writing are you? You say human nature is the basis of which all cultures spring. I say why then are things like greed not in all cultures. To this you just say "human condition is the same all over" even though I just explained that this is NOT the case in places like Papua New Guinea. What exactly are you basing this "human nature" on? Religious belief?

[bungtjebung]

why create a new alphabet soup (WSDE!) for an already available concept? it's co-operative. full stop.