EFAP #260 - EFAP FINALLY discuss SOMA and revisit some videos from a long time ago...

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[EveryFrameAPause]

This was pre-recorded in order to cobble together different streams/conversations. Hope you enjoy folks, this has been a long time coming <3 /

[thekeithclan]

It also sucks because even Markiplier sort of predicted at the end of the game that despite its incredible quality, he was worried that it just wouldn't resonate much with other people.

[HolyApplebutter]

The fact that people praise Detroit: Become Human for how its "robots are people" story is done over Soma is absolutely criminal.

[scottski]

Please don't leave me
--Boogie when he knocks over the last can of Mountain Dew on Earth

[masonc.]

"Listening to EFAP live is the only thing that brings me joy"

[blackdragoncyrus]

When Fringy played this - it's like his brain was non-stop, machine gun firing off his thoughts at many moments during the game, it was quite amusing to listen to.
"Man, what a- hm, wow. This is really interesting, because- hm. Hahahaha! Wow. I don't know! What do you do in this situation?"

[andreyserooky]

Just wanted to share a quick thought that popped into my head while thinking about this game

SOMA isn't about saving humanity, it's about giving it a proper burial

[samwallaceart]

My take on the "coin toss" is you guys are right from the consciousness' point of view, but the critics are right from the container's point of view.

To the 1st Simon in the robot body, the "coin toss" is a white lie; no matter what he does, he IS the Simon in the 1st robot body. The question isn't "will his consciousness be the one to transfer?", the real question is "are you ALREADY the 2nd robot remembering the events of the transfer, or are you ALREADY the 1st robot remembering being left behind?"

To his conscientiousness, the coin toss is a good framing device to help him accept it. I think where people lose the metaphor is they assume that the 1st robot would want to save itself; in which case no, there is no coin toss, 1st robot in-body is fucked no matter what. What they miss is that the greater consciousness of Simon _is_ saving itself; whether you're experiencing this as the robot left behind, or experiencing this retroactively as the copy that makes it forward; none of these actions are wasted.

Fundamentally Anderson thinks of it very literally and utilitarian as "fuck Other Me; I want to save THIS me and helping him doesn't help me so fuck the coin toss" while you guys view it as "it's important that ONE OF US make it; whether I make it or not, I'm the one holding the tool so let's just do it and what happens happens". Colors the whole metaphor differently.

[plantemor]

The idea of the copy is what makes the game so terrifying to me. It really makes you question identity in a way I haven't really seen before.

[alexhayden]

2:41:40 THIS is why they came up with "fear flashes." Because Joseph Anderson said that "jump scares" aren't a good name for them. Guys, the origin of Rebirth is right here and you didn't even notice!

[anthonyflohr]

“Soma not being a horror game is the only thing that brings me joy.”

[isaackane]

The concept of "what makes a human, " really falls into the fact that people tend to confuse "human" with "sapient". Human, homo-sapien, featherless biped, etc. is more or less strictly biological.

That said, our biology also plays a massive role into who we are, both our personality and our awareness of ourselves. We're still animals, although is smothered somewhat, there's still instinct and other biological factors that are encoded in our DNA that causes us to act and react in specific ways, shaping what it means to be "human." Something like a need to find a mate and reproduce, or innate fears we developed as we evolved. The real influence obviously varying from person to person.

Say you get a brain-scan of a person and put the copy into an identical biological clone, then put another copy into a robot, even a life-like android body. Those two people would probably have vastly different experiences from then on due to the robot body lacking that biological component that's always playing a part in our development. How about the brain scan of someone with mental disorders? Especially chemical-based ones? When there's no longer an actual brain there, will they be cured? Or will it manifest itself in a different way? Hell, just being aware that you're no longer flesh and blood could vastly change how a "human" develops.

At that point, I don't think it's inaccurate to consider such people as "no longer human". They're still sapient, they're still people. It'd be no different than how we should react when/if we meet alien life or create true AI. Acknowledgment of their life, but also being aware that they're not like us.

[Reeberi]

From what i understood, there is no coin toss. The consciousness copied, not transferred, so the one who sits down in the copy chair is the one who is left behind 100% of the time.

[j-starchaser]

To clear up a misconception - the easy mode in Soma does NOT remove the monsters. It's exactly the same, except they don't knock you out/kill you as they reach you.

[HolyApplebutter]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding their arguments, but I take issue with them calling transfers a cointoss. Like, sure, the Simon that continues on FEELS lucky, but there's no random chance involved. If anything, I interpreted it as Catherine simply explaining it that way to continue stringing Simon along. By saying it's a coin toss, that iteration of Simon thinks he has a chance, when either way that iteration is going to be staying behind, 100%, no doubt about it.

[KaNoMikoProductions]

Joseph is right that the Simon in the robot always loses. The new Simon experiencing a feeling of continuity doesn't change that.

[sirquaffler]

Regarding that one guy's "fun factor":
I distinctly remember one part of SOMA that really terrified me. It was when you are making your way to Tau in the abyss and you have to crawl into an underwater cavern filled with sea spiders. I'm terrified of spiders, and I already had to deal with some really horrifying creatures up to that point, but that tipped the edge for me. And I screamed out loud "Oh, I am NOT HAVING FUN RIGHT NOW!!!"
"Fun" is absolutely the wrong metric to measure a game like SOMA. "Engaging" is the correct one, and I was absolutely gripped the entire time I was playing, even as I was scared shitless.

[max]

1:25:38 we all know what Soma is missing. It’s missing watercoins that you gain for every step you take, that you can later exchange for guns in watershop.

[NoPantsBaby]

So on the coin toss question. It isn't a coin toss. Each copy is always and 100% a new copy.

If I create 2 folders on my PC. Then in the folder labeled old I create a file called Simon. Then I copy that file to the folder labeled new. The computer does not do a coin toss to decide which of the two files it puts in the folder. It takes the copy I made and puts it in the new folder. I simply don't believe these scientists designed their equipment with
Schrodinger Mind Scan in mind when it would entail infinitely more work than simply copying data as we do now in computers.

The real Simon is dead. He has always been dead since he died from his brain tumor. What is walking around is simplified brain scan Simon, already not real Simon anymore because he was simplified as the game states. Outside of the question that if you were to clone me who would be the "real one" it doesn't help when you then lobotomize one of them and pretend they are the same.

We are already not dealing with a question of real. Real Simon is dead, brain scan Simon is left behind. Each copy is 100% not the version you were playing as before. Each time you copy you are playing Copy 1, then Copy 2, then Copy 3 etc. The question in the game is what does it mean to exist? Is existence simply the presence of a consciousness even if it is working on entirely false sensory information and mimicking brain patterns from a long since deceased man? Is it worthwhile if that is all it is?


Real is not the question. None of this is real. It is all simulations run by constructs of long dead gods. The question is.... would that matter to you?

[jolean_cujoh]

Timestamps

*_[THE SOMA DISCUSSION]_*
0:30 - Discussion starts
1:08 - Fringy's thoughts on SOMA
3:34 - SOMA as a game or TV show?
5:18 - The choices / Destroying the WAU?
6:13 - What the WAU does
8:50 - "We cannot rely on a machine to know what it's like to be human."/ Destroying the WAU? (cont.)

12:08 - Criticisms against Simon / Catherine accepting her state of being
15:33 - The coin toss
18:12 - The meaning of SOMA
20:39 - SOMA's diverse environments
21:52 - The lack of respect for SOMA / SOMA isn't scary?
24:31 - The lack of consequences with SOMA's choices
27:01 - Transmissions (Live action SOMA prequel series)
29:04 - Catherine / Simon and Catherine's different POVs

31:03 -> _Rags hops in_ / Amnesia: Rebirth / The lack of respect for SOMA (cont.) / Joseph Anderson's video on SOMA
33:58 - Fringy's choice
36:26 - MauLer's choices / Carl / Christopher Odd / Markiplier
38:09 - Amy
39:35 - Brandon Wan / The legacy scans / Robin / Rags' choices / Amy (cont.)
41:22 - The WAU
42:54 - Javid Goya or the UH8? / The lack of respect for SOMA (cont.) / Outlast
47:57 - AI / A "real" conscious experience? / The limitations of being human / Continuity of consciousness
51:23 - The ending

53:06 - The fate of prior Simons / Criticisms against Simon (cont.)
54:46 - The twist? / Catherine's continued stream of consciousness /
57:34 - The recording of original Simon / Running simulations with digital copies / Deleting a person's consciousness?
1:01:49 - Sarah's room / Sarah's death
1:04:03 - The meaning of SOMA (cont.)
1:07:30 - Simon #2
1:15:45 - End

1:16:34 - Criticisms against SOMA
1:20:21 - A piece of advice when reviewing stuff

* * * * *
*_[COVERING JOSEPH'S VIDEO]_*
1:23:02 - Video Starts / SOMA's gameplay. A total failure?
1:27:39 - SOMA isn't scary? / Subjectivity is implied
1:31:27 - An... ominous apartment?
1:34:01 - An awkward nightmare sequence? / Forced dialogue? / Bad voice acting?
1:38:37 - PATHOS-II represents Simon's mind? / Misdirection?
1:50:03 - 'A couple' / 'A few' / 'Several'

1:51:49 - "SOMA isn't really a horror game. It isn't scary."
1:58:53 - SOMA tries too hard to scare you?
2:09:07 - Looking at some SOMA creatures
2:13:18 - "Enemy robots don't look scary"
2:16:35 - Engaging with the horror genre
2:19:13 - "You have to meet the game more than halfway in order to be scared by it"
2:21:40 - "Enemy robots are not scary" / Death mechanics in games

2:27:42 - "The gameplay in SOMA is basically hide and seek" / Enemy robots' speed
2:29:59 - "Enemy robots are not a threat and are not interesting"
2:31:54 - "That's it. Really slow and boring" / Death mechanics in games
2:35:19 - Tedious gameplay? / "Simon is canonically faster" / Amnesia: Rebirth (cont.)
2:39:58 - SOMA's glaring flaw? / Engaging with the horror genre (cont.)
2:41:39 - "Jump startles" / Fear flashes
2:43:20 - MauLer's first law of bad video essays

2:50:40 - The puzzles / Exploring / "No environmental story-telling"
2:55:23 - The 1st robot
2:58:11 - Carl / I thought you said it wasn't scary, Joseph?
3:04:31 - "It doesn't speak or think really"
3:06:01 - CARL / I thought you said it wasn't scary, Joseph? (cont.)

3:10:40 - People's interpretations of consciousness
3:18:10 - The good stuff interrupted by monsters?
3:19:17 - "Frictional was of 2 minds when developing SOMA"
3:30:32 - Oof
3:34:00 - Simon is... slow? / The coin toss
3:44:52 - The choice to leave Simon #2
3:50:37 - Simon is stupid?

3:54:36 - The ending is deflating? / Joseph's suggestions to improve SOMA
4:09:54 - Meaningless stuff?
4:12:26 - The choices in SOMA
4:14:22 - "The gameplay in SOMA is basically hide and seek" (cont.) / The choices in SOMA (cont.)
4:16:15 - The good stuff interrupted by monsters? (cont.)

* * * * *
*_[COVERING ACG'S VIDEO]_*
4:24:24 - Video starts
4:26:24 - Graphics / Interactive stuff
4:29:11 - "Unique and mysterious locations exusding an eerie feeling the developers intended originally" / "The enemies, animations and textures are like Aliens, TLoU and System Shock"
4:32:06 - "The robots have far more emotion than the creatures you face" / "Insane overuse of chromatic aberration"
4:33:55 - "Sometimes it's difficult to see if something is interactable"
4:35:00 - Sound, Music and Voice / "Some sounds do feel cribbed from past horror games"

4:38:26 - "It just doesn't really get into your head" / Gameplay / Total Recall
4:41:17 - "The AI, like any other AI, figured out that humans shouldn't be at the top of the food chain"
4:43:13 - "It's handled with all the dexterity of smashing your thumb with a hammer" / The gameplay is repetitive? / When this video was released
4:46:01 - "Lots and lots of walking" /
4:48:08 - "The story was rote and basic" / "It absolutely offers nothing of interest"
4:50:13 - The gameplay is repetitive? (cont.) / "Lack of terror and fear of life when you get knocked out"

4:53:00 - Do people just can't understand SOMA? / "The game is simply isn't scary" / "No actual gameplay" / "SOMA creaks like an old boat when the story progresses"
4:55:19 - Funfactor / The lack of passion reviewing SOMA
4:58:20 - "Repetitive and reductionist gameplay" / "Wait a deep deep deep sale. sale."
4:59:34 - _End of video_ / Reading the comments

* * * * *
5:03:39 - Amnesia: Rebirth (cont.)
5:05:08 - SOMA's reputation

5:07:57 - Closing