Collectible Games - III: What Makes a Good TCG or CCG? - Extra Credits

A collectible mechanic adds good value to a game - but only if the designers know how to balance it well! Learn how the best collectible game design makes a game easy for new players to start rich in advanced tactics.
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♪ Intro Music: "Penguin Cap" by CarboHydroM

♪ Outro Music: "ROM Schtick" by Shael RIley

[extrahistory]

Thanks for the kind words on the new intro and thumbnails and stuff! Glad you guys are liking them!  -Dan

[VechsDavion]

Dan and James, I love your series.  I've tried to use a lot of the concepts you talk about to help my own level design work.

All the best,

Vechs

[gorddude]

The draft aspect of CCGs reminds me of Nuzlocke runs in Pokemon. You make the best with what you're dealt. Adds a whole new realm of experience to the main story of the game for those people who find it easy.

[Silas_MN]

This episode can basically be summed up as "Why Magic The Gathering is Awesome".

[Rackdar]

This video just made me remember how much I love Magic. I don't "play" Magic but sometimes at conventions its so much fun to just sit down and do a draft. I usually just give the cards to my friends when I'm done but its still so rewarding because of the "puzzle" aspect as mentioned in this video.

[TyronMakeka]

I want 4 copies of evey card from magic ever printed.

[extrahistory]

At the end of this episode, we mentioned many new things are coming up for the Extra Credits channel. Well, we got a little more specific here - and there will be details soon! Extra Credits Announces New Shows!

[artman]

To go a bit off topic, I think this random thing is one things why roguelikes and roguelites are popular: you can't always have things go in your way and you have to work with what you have (games like Atom Zombie Smasher come to mind). (the other part is having tension of losing everything when you die but not having "I have to do it all over again" feeling.)

[Butzbo]

Superb! You guys usually make so many references to Magic: The Gathering that it's great to see an episode focused on it. I think (atleast from a game design perspective) there's A LOT to learn from MTG (I highly recommend checking Mark Rosewater's column on design of the game at the MTG page).

[Demonskunk]

Could you guys do an episode on mmo end games? Honestly I've never once made it to the end game of an memo because the beginning and middle game are so ignored, and feel like a huge grind to get to the "good stuff" that everyone talks about at the end of the game, and I'm curious as to what the thought process there is... Why only add content to interest people heavily invested into the game, and not content to help grab the interest of new players with 60 levels of fetchquests and kill quests between them and 'fun'?

Thanks :3

[PIKMINROCK]

I'm surprised so few games use this collectable mechanic outside of TCG. There's a lot of genres that could use a collectible mechanic to put an interesting spin on competitive multiplayer. 

[supermegaultraawsome]

I would love to see the Extra Credits crew playing magic.

[Overhazard]

Unfortunately, every TCG/CCG I've come across has had its competitive scene distilled down to about 5 different decks, tops. The Pokémon TCG had this hit the hardest: During the 3rd generation, there were literally dozens of possible combinations, because every card designed Rare or above (sometimes even Uncommon) had competitive potential, as it became strongly exceptions-based. That is, every set had at least 8 or so cards that allowed you to break one or more rules or was immune to one or more rules and were designed in conjunction with each other. By the 5th generation, this philosophy was tossed out the window by making rarer cards inherently and obviously more powerful and brought in the new Level X Pokémon, who were so powerful, Mewtwo in particular, that for a brief moment only Mewtwo decks could win tournaments. It's up to around...three or so now, but the creativity in card design has become a shell of its former self. The focus was now based on high HP, high damage, rather than putting up barriers or overcoming drawbacks like 3rd- and 4th-generation play was like. (I haven't played the TCG at all over the 6th generation though.)

Nintendo does a pretty good job of making cards available though--if a card catches on, it becomes a promo card available in box sets or tins at every toy store and department store. This is something I see few other TCG makers do (only Yu-Gi-Oh! and Naruto so far).

[EdwardBerner]

I really preffered the old intro. It uses the "photographs" well to both introduce you to the team and welcome you into the episode, as well as showing "we've got this much of awesome stuff we've done in the past".
All in all, it just felt more... homely. The new intro is, in my opinion, too clinical.

The new outro and the green-colored look in general are cool though - and as always the episode itself is pure quality :)

[TheJetNetChannel]

Hey, I'm making a TCG at home (just for my friends and I) and this video really helped me by indirectly telling me what and what not to do. Keep it up!

[PaulGaither]

@2:44- is something that actually does happen in Magic the Gathering. It is what we call "strictly better" cards. They don't get printed all the time, but it does happen. Also, this is part of Power Creep, a topic from another video.

In MtG's history, for around 15 years, Savannah Lions was a staple rare as a 2/1 for a single white mana, where now a 2/1 for one has been relegated to uncommon status, and with features that are more useful than the original Lion. For example, a solider creature type that benefits from solider tribal effects, or in black a zombie that can be replayed over and over again from the graveyard and also benefits from zombie tribal effects.

I don't think this is always a bad thing. in the case of Magic, creatures were underpowered for a long time, and for around a decade, the best decks played little to no creatures in them. That is certainly changing and it better for the overall health of the game.

[CesarTheKingVA]

I preferred the old intro song.  It had more of a lead-in.  As it currently stands, it just plops the viewer down into the middle of the track, and it's a bit disconcerting.

[mateushac]

Wow! Thx for putting up subtitles in Portuguese! Even though I don't need them that much, I'm sure there's plenty of Portuguese and Brazilian people out there looking  for the kind of content you guys make.

[MultiFortunatus]

Ever thought about as show over "Making rules that don't Explode", making mechanics that don't get the player stuck or cause a logical explosion is a unique challenge for those interested in the technical aspect.

[DavidScott-Coanunn]

I found you guys through PATV a while back and you have become something that my wife and I look forward to all the time.  Love the show!