Reflections on a movement | Eric Ries (creator of the Lean Startup methodology)

Eric Ries is the creator of the Lean Startup methodology, author of the New York Times bestseller The Lean Startup, and founder of the Long-Term Stock Exchange (LTSE). He’s also a multi-time founder and currently advises startups, VC firms, and larger companies on business and product strategy. In today’s episode, we discuss:
• The current state of the Lean Startup methodology
• Common misconceptions about the Lean Startup methodology
• Understanding how to actually think about MVPs (minimum viable products)
• When to pivot and when to stay the course
• Thoughts on AI and how to deal with uncertainty
• How to structure your company around core values and create products that benefit humanity
• The philosophy behind Eric’s current big idea: the Long-Term Stock Exchange
• Much more
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Where to find Eric Ries:

Where to find Lenny:

In this episode, we cover:
(00:00) Eric’s background
(04:46) Eric’s recent activities and projects
(06:23) Eric’s start in advising and first-principles thinking
(10:56) Lessons from designing the Lean Startup process
(14:04) The current state of lean startup methodology
(22:33) Common misconceptions about the methodology
(24:28) Changes Eric would make in an updated version of Lean Startup
(27:52) An explanation of minimum viable product (MVP) and why Eric still stands by the process
(37:36) An example of “Less is more”
(41:24) More on MVPs and the importance of testing your hypotheses 
(41:24) How LTSE had to pivot after a partnership fell apart
(48:37) Eric’s take on the concept of craft
(53:36) Why getting fired for standing by your conviction can be a career accelerator
(55:17) Tech’s mental health crisis
(56:28) Advice for founders stuck in a “zombie company”
(1:00:16) How continuous pivots shape a company’s vision, with a real-life story
(1:08:20) Challenges in assessing companies from an external perspective
(1:13:17) Practical advice for businesses considering a pivot
(1:18:42) The impact of artificial intelligence
(1:26:59) The current capabilities of ChatGPT and its potential use as an equalizer in the marketplace
(1:31:26) Eric’s current work with founders on human flourishing
(1:42:40) Advice for founders who want to build ethical companies 
(1:49:37) Examples of first-principles thinking
(1:53:42) Why shareholder primacy theory is wrong
(1:55:19) The “spiritual holding company” 
(1:58:12) Lightning round

Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.

[BetterLivingHamburg]

How are more people not watching this. This discussion has a lot of value in my judgement

[muthumasterpiece]

One of the best videos I've watched on youtube

[martypstuart]

Every entrepreneur should watch this interview.

[Notanumber]

This was an amazing episode, Lenny! As a new founder, Eric’s advice is so real and relatable even 10 years after the Lean Startup. Thank you for this incredible content!

[alexeyhimself]

Oh. My. God! Thank you so much for a long and deep discussion on MVP! This is absolutely needed! So many misconceptions about it!

[abstractalgo]

Great to hear considerations around ethics, it truly is a very important topic. Eric is a wonderful speaker and thinker, I'm really glad to have someone like him be a strong voice in the industry. Thanks for the episode, Lenny!

[ipranay]

This is for sure the best yet! Love how Eric can just pull awesome examples out of his back pocket! Definitely re-listening to Lean Startup today!!

[segelmark]

Great guest! You should get the OG guys on the pod that pioneered similar ideas before Eric: Steve Blank and Geoffrey Moore!

[americanonobrasil]

Lenny, you are crushing it. You’re very skilled in listening and not interrupting. I love hearing this brain dumps from these people! I’ve also been binging your newsletter. Just too much great content coming from you 😂

[slowzen]

The ‘inaudible’ part at 00:35:25 is referring to Snow Crash, the novel by Neal Stephenson that coined the term Metaverse

[LWarrenF]

I just want to say this was a fabulous interview. I’d also like to mention the intellectual progenitor to Ries’ book, Eliyahu Goldratt’s The Goal - written at the depths of Americas manufacturing depression, it showed a way out. A great read, written as a novel.

[LukeBeckman]

Very thoughtful and meaningful content that applies across many sectors. Thank you for this service Lenny!

[akashkandasamy]

Amazing, Cant wait to hear from my favorite author

[rybee]

It’s not minimum that’s fluid, it’s viable that is a modifier of minimum. It’s the minimum that is still viable. And that depends on the user, the job, the context, the hypothesis, etc.

[rybee]

the difference between title card Eric and video Eric really demonstrates the "10+ years later"

[sohanjoshi-co]

can't wait to hear it. Thank you Lenny!

[spotter_]

i almost cried when clay died he was very important to helping me build my thinking

[miranaradivojevic]

Research alleviates a lot misses but an MVP is the only way to know. That’s where you get the best feedback. Pivot.

[laurenaholliday]

Just rewatching this again -- the part about the mental health crisis, and I actually wrote about Hsieh's death immediately after Forbes published a scathing article about him.

Not one publication, even all the ones I have relationships with, wouldn't publish it. It really made me upset, because someone should rectify that visionary's ending. Here's the unpublished g-doc. I even interviewed psychologists to analyze the situation.

Forbes didn't interview one. And in fact, they flat out lied about speaking with his Zappos co-founder. I know because messaged him and asked.

He said he didn't speak to anyone about it. Anyway, here's the link, it literally details why the Hsieh incident isn't the full story you got. And it kills me how people who are supposed to be reputable journalists, like Kara Swisher, shared clickbait links to the Forbes article with lambasting headlines of Tony.

If she was actually fair and unbiased, like journalists are supposed to be, she would've dug even the least bit below the surface to see what the actual issues were. And Jewel... Don't get even me started on that press-hungry, one-hit wonder. I mean look at the negative tweets about Tony -- from people who just read the Forbes article and took it at face value.

Re-reading the tweets gets me heated to this day. And this happened years ago.

[jviegas]

dr. Russell Ackoff in the 80's already was telling business managers that the goal of any business is not to make money, but to develop and bring value to society. I don't know if Eric even knows, but basically Lean and Agile methodologies are rooted in System Thinking principles, where Russel Ackoff was on of the fathers. Unfortunately, along the way we lost that knowledge and became more interested in slogans and names to give to things. It's natural, that as we get older and we see that society is not evolving, we start to think that we need to change something 😉