It's Time to Remove Bolstering from M+

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Shoutout to Tettles for the Original Video! Check out his Channel:

Hey guys! recently reacted to Tettles video about Bolstering in M+ and how deeply it affects each run. It's a super interesting video that highligths issues in specific dungeons like Waycrest Manor & Everbloom, aswell as this dungeon pool as a whole - With me recently getting super into M+ i figured I'd weigh in my opinion on the current state of Bolstering

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[Sithalos]

Any affix that punishes you for big pulls (which are fun) is awful.

[thesmokajoka]

20% damage increase per stack of bolstering is a bit insane.

[meeyou]

shoutout to the 20 billion HP spotters in Siege of Boralus back in the day

[jasonbfleece]

Its crazy how in my +20 key as Warrior this week there were some pulls where my Spell Reflect was almost 30% of my damage some pulls. Fortified + a few Bolstering stacks makes a single Arcane Blast hit for almost 3 mil.

[tjfer]

fortified with bolstering is a big part of the problem. halving the damage from bolstering to 10% per stack might actually be enough to make it not so oppresive with certain pulls.

[kasper]

There's a lot of huge pulls in the season 3 dungeons so bolstering hits very hard right now. But yes, the solution can be pretty simple. Some mobs simply shouldn't add bolstering stacks. Imagine if the bats in Black Rook Hold gave bolstering stacks.

[gnsh]

sooo...

I was thinking about it a little bit. And what about reducing affixes to tyrannical and fortified only and attach fixed affixes to a certain dungeon.

so for example: in everbloom, there is entangling. In some BRH, there is bolstering. etc. because that would be how these dungeons work.

- you could balance your dungeon much more easily in regards of pull sizes.
- dungeons get more flavor (of course, some dungeons would still be the "worst", but that will never go away anyways)
- the learning curve would actually be less steap, since you don't have to learn every dungeon for every combination of affixes.
- a week beeing a "push" week would only be dependant on it being tyrannical or fortified. again, something that could be balanced more easily for each dungeon.
- you get more flexibility to try new affixes, without having to worry that your entire set of dungeons become unplayable.
- retail would get a bit more of a sense of consistency within the game, which is (imho) partly what e.g. classic does so well and what people want in general.

(didn't read any comments, sorry if this was mentioned already)

[miro]

imagine that fated season (we all know its just, w8 next expansion) we got fun affixes. just go blast everything season and how high u can go

[toreole]

A maximum of bolstering stacks / reduced dmg% per stack / removing bolstering from certain mobs, all could make the affix less of an issue, without making it completely meaningless

[opyshuichiro]

I'm a tank, the only time I'm having a shit ton of fun is when I pull very big in fortified in a manner that won't kill my teammates unless I die. Bolstering purely prevents that, and it's not fun.

An affix that changes your route in a good way IMO was SL's S4 special affix with the Nathrezim's/Dreadlords "hidden" within the mob. It was rewarding, and the boss one was also challenging, and you had to decide between skipping it or getting that sweet 4% stats, it was just perfect.

[jbzettl]

better idea make bolstering a buff that only be on one or 2 specific mob per pull (so only like 30% of the mobs in a dungeon would bolster) and when those mobs die then they buff every thing around it meaning those are the mobs you want to kill last in the pull.

[MrTalicor]

As an enhancement shaman bolstering is my affix, funneling off the threat and making sure it dies at the same time as the smaller adds is what enhancement does best.

[MatthewGalon]

I think the biggest problem with bolstering is that it is fundamentally unfun to play around. Most other affixes are solved by dispel, interrupts, stuns, or movement. Bolstering is solved by doing single target damage in an aoe scenario.

My favorite part about mythic plus is it is one of the few areas where you can do long term mass aoe. It’s very rare to be present in raids and usually is faster due to the number of people. Bolstering invalidates that and causes the group to change playstyles more than the rest.

One thing I’m curious about is how most of the m+ affixes were much more powerful in legion perma bolstering, stacking sanguine, undispelable grievous, etc. but m+ felt… easier? Maybe player power was so high that it was just less difficult to deal with the affixes. But I clearly remember 15s felt trivial and you could do a carry run in like 10 minutes or less.

[unhingedcrouton]

Nerf bolster stack to 1% and bolster stacks relative to total mob hp ... Small mob adds 1 stack, big mobs add 10 stacks, ....

[dclazclown]

Rerouting for an affix is fine; pulling 4 abominations in EB without anything else completely stops dungeon progression though. On a non-Bolstering week, you can pull them with other things; with just 1 stack of bolstering though, they can (and do) wipe groups.

In my honest opinion; dungeons should *always* be fun for tanks (because raiding as a tank is boring AF); big pulls, seeing what you can and can't survive. Group survivability becomes the larger issue with bolstering. Yes, a 6 stacked anything has the potential to 1-shot your tank depending on mod type, but take BRH for example, where the VERY first pull is dangerous if you bolster (anything), since the casters hurt and there's a lot of interrupts needed, and then the non-casters throw out soulblades, which is just silly, because you've got 3-4 of them just stacking debuffs on the group. If they live past the DR on stuns, you're group is just getting annihilated, and there's really no counter-play outside of more DPS.

Bolstering is the anti-fun affix. Is it worth salvaging? Sure, if it's max capped at 1 stack and refreshes when something dies, still means you can readjust how you pull the dungeon, but stops the literal halt on dungeon progress that Bolstering currently offers.

[KurodiaYozora]

The way to make positive affixes a thing is, in my humble opinion, to make it as a progressive reward throughout the dungeon, that also does not invalidate the other affixes, but may change the way you plan a route from the usual.
An example of this is Shrouded in S4 SL, where you could choose what substat you wanted to gain from killing specific mobs, up to a certain amount.

An example of what I would like as a positive affix is something simple as: "After defeating a boss, gain 50% increased damage and healing for 40 seconds" (Like a BL of sorts)
This would be a good situational affix on certain fortified dungeons that have packs around, or immediately after, a boss (Brackenhide, Uldaman, Plaguefall, Freehold) which could change the way you would path in these dungeons as well (skip packs, then backtrack after boss kills with dmg increase).

Another positive affix idea would be to just have encrypted again c:

[pepsiontherockspls]

At 9:35 I think Max mentions a good point. Everbloom is a really good example because it's very hard with bolster, and Rise's initial trash as well. In both dungeons we were progging 26 this week and we had a hard time, depleting key after key down to a 24, and ultimately we still haven't timed a 26. BUT at the same time, we enjoyed it as a coordinated team. I think the biggest thing Blizz needs to consider, and that the content creator community should keep the conversation alive about, is introducing kiss/curse affects. What if bolster gave mobs 20% more damage, but it also gave us a buff as a group to do more damage/healing? I don't know the magic number for balancing, but who cares, that would be super fun trying to balance the pull sizes and finding the sweet spot, compared to what we have now.

In relation to raids, why is it all of the sudden a bad thing when pugs can't handle a hard key and/or affix? Sometimes pugs really struggle on heroic bosses, it's just a part of pugging that we accept when it comes to raids, and for players that care, it pushes them to want to form a team and ultimately keep the competitive and community-based nature of the game alive. Our group still had a blast trying to figure this key out and sure, maybe bolster could use a slight nerf, but having to learn a dungeon in and out, similar to a raid fight, is very enjoyable for many players that care about m+.

Making players think outside the box for their group comp is what makes it challenging and enjoyable for progression-minded people (most of the people doing m+ to begin with). Anybody will face walls and the fun for most is trying to overcome them. M+ is not a flat difficulty like raid either, so anybody can do it at whatever level is comfortable for them. Want to just brute force a key and do big damage mindlessly, chill with the homies? Do a lower key... It's that simple.

[shak_]

its only a problem because fort week with bolstering gives the same rating as fort week with other affix because the alternative to bolstering is just doing another week with better affixes. Nobody has an actual issue with the time loss i think.. its just that you CAN get the same reward for easier keys in other weeks which makes bolstering weeks feel like a waste of time

[MrAlbinoGhost]

i still think the best way to "fix" m+ is to delete minor affixes entirely, and to instead have a rotation of 3 affixes on the scale of old seasonal affixes - one per week. it better achieves the goal of shaking up dungeons week-by-week, has fewer outputs to have to worry about balancing, and would just plainly be more fun

[thezerb]

Old Bolstering was sometimes hilarious, "build your own raidboss" would aptly describe some of the shenanigans.

But I totally agree that it needs a few tweaks, esp with some of the older dungeons, and esp to accomodate for weeks like the current one where you´re basically fighting an army of undertuned minibosses until one little flower miniboss that was accidentally pulled dies and causes one of the swolbros to go supersaiyan.