Matter is Frozen Light: Sheldrake-Vernon Dialogue 86

The everyday stuff called matter turns out to be both more fascinating and stranger than we usually assume. In this episode of the Sheldrake-Vernon Dialogues, Rupert Sheldrake and Mark Vernon ask just what matter is, beginning with contemporary ideas from quantum physics, in which matter is frozen light, as the physicist David Bohm put it. They consider the relationship between matter and gravity, as well as matter and ancient notions of potentiality, which turn out to be surprising relevant today. The differences between quantity and quality offer another conversational thread, with the discussion also drawing in wider questions, such as the nature of matter within the philosophy of panpsychism, and also the etymological links between matter and mater, or mother, revealing factors about material of which most are unconscious today.

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Dr Rupert Sheldrake, PhD, is a biologist and author best known for his hypothesis of morphic resonance. At Cambridge University, as a Fellow of Clare College, he was Director of Studies in biochemistry and cell biology. As the Rosenheim Research Fellow of the Royal Society, he carried out research on the development of plants and the ageing of cells, and together with Philip Rubery discovered the mechanism of polar auxin transport. In India, he was Principal Plant Physiologist at the International Crops Research Institute for the Semi-Arid Tropics, where he helped develop new cropping systems now widely used by farmers. He is the author of more than 100 papers in peer-reviewed journals and his research contributions have been widely recognized by the academic community, earning him a notable h-index for numerous citations. On ResearchGate his Research Interest Score puts him among the top 4% of scientists.

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Dr Mark Vernon is a psychotherapist and writer with a rich academic background in physics, theology, and philosophy. He contributes to programmes on the radio, writes and reviews for newspapers and magazines, gives talks and podcasts. His books have covered themes including friendship and God, ancient Greek philosophy and wellbeing. His new book, out August 2019, is "A Secret History of Christianity: Jesus, the Last Inkling and the Evolution of Consciousness". He has a PhD in ancient Greek philosophy, and other degrees in physics and in theology, and works as a psychotherapist in private practice. He used to be an Anglican priest.

Mark's latest book is...
A Secret History of Christianity: Jesus, the Last Inkling, and the Evolution of Consciousness

[ac]

I once had a nuclear physicist come for dinner. He said: this marble table is basically just a force field.

[agua_dorada]

Such a pleasure to see and hear you, Rupert, thank you ❤️ for this conversation

[jasonvaughan]

I can’t believe in seeing this. I thought this when I was in my 20’s. I’m 55 now. Thanks.

[rogerjohnson]

I just discovered Sheldrake and am impressed. I wish there was a button which would let me skip the Vernon parts; he just obfuscates. I do like the way Sheldrake will just say "yes..." and then resay what Verson says in a way that makes sense...

[penelope]

Sheldrake is just essential mind food for me .. nourishing snd humble .. I can listen to him for hours and hours and hours 💜

[duncanmckeown]

The "Sheldrake Surprise"! I love that term! It's one of the reasons why his thought is so fascinating.

[mariekuijkenhistoricallyaw]

Matter is frozen light, a phrase by David Bohm... Thanks so much!! I love David Bohm, such a gem of a human being and scientist!

[dimitrioskatelouzos]

After so many years, listening again to Rupert Sheldrake is like a morning breese.

[MichaelRelevant]

Rupert Sheldrake has some wacky ideas when it comes to consciousness, but I enjoyed this . We may not need the ether to carry light. I still feel drawn to a belief in its existence. If you’re feeling fat, it might help you to think about the idea that you’re actually mostly empty space. That makes me feel like I could skate better at 235lbs but of course that’s not really true is it? Your body is made of organs, which are in turn made of cells, which contain organelles, which are composed of molecules, which themselves are linked-up chains of individual atoms. Those atoms are made of even smaller constituents: protons, neutrons, and electrons. If someone calls you lazy you could say at a small scale I’m actually moving very fast but the atoms in our bodies and the collisions that take place between various particles are less than one-billionth the energy of what the Large Hadron Collider reaches. You’re mostly a series of electron clouds, all bound together by the quantum rules that govern the entire Universe. I like how playful Rupert Sheldrake is with the nature of reality. I hope to be that playful at his age. I didn’t know Galileo gave lectures on Dante and the Devine comedy.

[mohankoka]

Blessed be thy soul who understand this wonderful discussion ! Thank you both Rupert and Mark for such deep insights !🙏 Truly a magnificent discussion .

[bungeebones]

So what I am really seeing is "frozen light" speaking to me. Amazing!

[babbarr]

Wow! Now I get it! All I needed was the headline! Now it makes perfect sense, even visualization in Tibetan Buddhism the quantum matrix…..this will be fun to contemplate. Thanks!

[GeneralSulla]

Light is energy, energy is matter, matter is energy, therefore light is matter in massless form.

[lafleurproductions]

Great conversation. Very stimulating. Thanks very much to both of you.

[lynnhall]

Extremely deep and a wonderfully enlightening conversation. Please keep challenging us to reflect deeply thru your open-minded conversations!!

[Honorary_Redneck]

I once told a judge "well technically your honor we can't touch anything or anyone due the field of each respective object or person repelling the others just before actual contact is made." I was still found guilty of battery.

[EbbandFlow]

Absolutely, brilliant.
It always reminds me of water, every time wavering, watery, shimmering, water like.
Very interesting facts about plasma and empty space and how it can conduct electricity, that's the charge, the spark, life.
So the energy is neutral until paired up? Then it becomes its identical twin.
Different types of matter, different instruments that make a symphony.
Like an AC/DC song, Let there be light, sound, drums, guitars. Let these be Rock
Itsall a dance to music, everything that vibrates hums anc dances.
I really enjoy your discussions with two creative, brilliant minds.
Thank you.❤

[drusilladana]

I love listening to this! Upon hearing their conversation, my thoughts immediately went to something I had read in a favorite book. "Hanta Yo" (clear the way, in a sacred manner I come) written by Ruth Beebe Hill with help from a Lakota Sioux elder. In the book are references to this thing called "taku skan skan" (something in movement, spiritual vitality). It would appear to be a natural law or natural force that permeates everything. The book was written in English, then translated into Lakota, then translated back into English. The result is a prose of epic ethereal beauty.

[joshuaestep]

ALL things in existence is the same matter just on a different frequency.

Sound is light.

"Let there be light."

Only enlightened ones will understand that.

[teslasapple]

All matter (atoms) in the universe are comprised of a single, twisted, closed loop thread.

Atoms are bundles of this thread.

All atoms connect to all other atoms.

Light is torsion along these twisted threads. The twisting is what we measure as frequency and wavelength.



Transmission of light, Gravity and Inertia are now easily explained.

This gives a mechanism for the ‘Morphic field’.