The Casual vs Competitive Debate w/ Kyle Hill I The Command Zone 313 I Magic: the Gathering

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Show Notes:

The world of Commander has experienced a growing fissure between “casual” and “competitive” players. On this episode, we’re joined by acclaimed science communicator and avid EDH-aficionado Kyle Hill to discuss and debate the virtues of both playstyles.

Can these two very different philosophies ever learn to live together in harmony? Or is the format destined to fracture? Let’s debate!

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Find UltraPro:

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What we talked about on THE END STEP:

Kyle’s New YouTube Channel:

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Where to find Kyle online:
Twitter: @Sci_Phile
Instagram: @Sci_Phile

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Huge thanks to Geoffrey Palmer the awesome Living Cards animations. Follow him here:

Commander/EDH Official Rules, Banlist, Forums, and more:

[kylehill]

Thanks for having me back bois! Love talking with you and all things EDH

[PlayingWithPowerMTG]

Absolutely fantastic episode. Kyle, Josh, and Jimmy knocked it out of the park with the representation of the CEDH community. Fantastic job navigating the VERY turbulent waters of that topic.


Major props and thank you so much for this wonderful episode!

[TheSpikeFeeders]

cEDH players: If you like this video and you want Josh and Jimmy to know that, remember to thumbs up and share this video with your friends.


Some thoughts:

At 13:17 Kyle says there's no social contract, and goes on to clarify that there's no prior spoken or unspoken agreement that certain strategies like land destruction are de facto off-limits. I personally think that these things are true, but there's more to the social contract than just specific disallowed strategies. I think there's a strong emphasis in both play environments that everyone should have a good time, but in the cEDH environment people have already agreed on a common framework for what that looks like. People often say that cEDH is about not caring about their opponents having a good time (which would be the true absence of a social contract), but I actually care very deeply about my opponents having a good time. If I think they're not going to have a good time playing against my cEDH deck I put it away and play something else. Kyle goes on to explain this later on at 45:30. I definitely agree with the explanation, I just wouldn't use the title "no social contract".

At 24:55 Kyle raises a really interesting point that I wish he would have expanded on! The idea that some things are "not competitive" is really pervasive in the cEDH community. You hear a lot of people talk about viability and whether things are good enough. Just because something isn't a 10 doesn't mean it's appropriate for casual tables!

At 51:27 Kyle says you need foils if you want be at the tippy top of the format and I would agree with him. Foil islands tap for UU and I won't respond to anyone who says otherwise.

I've never felt closer to Kyle than I do when he admits to being bad at limited at 56:50

I LOVE the explanation at 59:00 that Commander flexes different muscles, and I would 100% agree. When people say "Why don't you just go play Vintage", my answer is usually that I don't like Vintage and it doesn't flex the same muscles that cEDH does.

1:04:00 I got SO excited when Kyle started talking about when Spike Feeder came out and am devastated that he was talking about the card and not the handsome gentlemen on Youtube.


Overall I think this was a very balanced and comprehensive look at some things that a lot of people don't understand! Would love to see more Kyle on the cast in the future!

[justinfracchia]

I really feel a need for an episode with Kyle v The Professor v Jimmy v Josh

[TheMightyBattleSquid]

Kyle Hill reminds me of that guy always telling me my men's bodywash is synthetic trash in recent youtube ads.

[eatmoretidepods]

Here's the layout
Casual EDH: if that's the way you want to play then that's fine

Competitive EDH: if that's how you want to play then that's fine

Pubstompers: you don't belong to either of these groups and you are toxic

[Found]

Phelddagrif came up a couple of times, and I just want to mention that there is a cEDH deck called Hippo Hulk. It gets infinite mana and a Suture Priest, then drops infinite hippos on its enemies. It is by no means top tier, but its is a sight to behold.

[KenBaumann]

Someone told me the main difference between cEDH and casual EDH (which Kyle mentions briefly in this episode): casual EDH has big and crazy board states; cEDH has big and crazy stacks. I play both styles and I've found this to be true. Thanks for accurately representing the differences and similarities between these styles of play, y'all!

[PlaytoWinMTG]

Such an awesome episode!! Love what Kyle was saying around 45:00 about what cEDH does is immediately levels the playing field. My 8 and someone else's 8 can be very different, But a 10 is a 10. We all have the same intent. WE'RE ALL PLAYING TO WIN

[TealVelvet]

"Casual, Serious and cEDH"

i agree with the addition, you can't have black and white without the gray area

[luuk]

Jimmy should make a Godo helm of the host deck

[speaksincircles]

I really dislike when people say cEDH is not fun. It’s a different type of way to play. It’s competitive in the sense of the flow of the game. It doesn’t necessarily mean it’s serious. In fact in cEDH there less salt, because its expected to do thing that break the “social contract”

[thisisludo]

JLK: "..CON--"
Kyle: "..of Tarkir"

😂😂😂

[SmolPP]

'I only play with ultra-pros'


Ever heard of dragon shields

[MichaelJohnMAGA]

Kyle: "The name of the [cEDH] game is speed"


Me, a Blood Pod player: "Can't hear you over this Trinisphere and Thalia, bud."

[capt.cheesecake]

As a magic player, but Commander newbie, I started hating on "Cedh" decks cause some... buttholes in my LGS always wanted to play with my friends and I and our recently open Anje, Sevinne and Kadena decks with their OP Reaper King or Grand Arbiter Augustin decks all the time; and of course they roflstomped us and it was no fun. Later I learned that those were not actual Cedh decks, and they were "Make me feel good for wrecking newbies" decks. Now that I've gotten more into commander, and have more optimized decks, I dont hate Cedh, it's totally okay as a "sub format", I just wouldn't be able to get into it since as a college student, my budget is very low and Vampiric Tutor and Force of Will are not budget-friendly at all. Great episode!

[enricus]

1:05:21 Hard disagree, I've cast Yawgwill hundreds of times now and I still make a big deal out of it every time, it just feels good casting old super powerful cards, it feels like some ancient forbidden magic.

[MadThespian]

Before I even start the pod. Both are valid. Don't pub stomp. RULE 0 People! Learn how to evaluate your decks. Built multiple decks at different levels.

[treyden]

Prof and Ryan from Playing with Power arrived at a good conclusion in this discussion. Everyone plays to win, cEDH is just a deckbuilding mindset.

[Cyberium]

Interesting to see several sites start this topic almost simultaneously, guess we are all preparing for this "Commander Year".

1) Make multiple decks so no matter which group you join you will have something to play with.
2) Don't be toxic.