The Meaning Crisis: Resolution | Dr. John Vervaeke | EP 482

Dr. Jordan B. Peterson sits down in person with associate professor of psychology at the University of Toronto, author, and podcaster, Dr. John Vervaeke. They discuss the alignment between the Gospel accounts and Western civilization; Neoplatonism as it applies to Christianity; the voluntary necessity of reason, love, and beauty; and what really caused the Roman Empire to fall.

John Vervaeke is an associate professor of psychology and cognitive science at the University of Toronto. John researches and publishes on the nature of intelligence, rationality, wisdom, and meaning in life, emphasizing relevance realization, non-propositional kinds of knowing, and 4E cognitive science.

This episode was filmed on September 5th, 2024.

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(0:00) Coming up
(0:36) Intro
(3:32) The Gospel seminar, “it was a very healing moment for me”
(8:59) “Foundations of the West,” the proper alignment between the Gospel accounts and Western civilization
(10:36) Bridging the Ancient Greek philosophers to the Christian ethos
(13:28) “We Who Wrestle With God,” the book, the tour, and Dawkins
(15:28) Neoplatonism — unrealized potential, down to the level of atoms, suggests an implicate order
(17:28) When brilliant thinkers and theologians submit themselves to the spirit of the logos
(19:17) The love of wisdom versus the love of victory, the use of power to compel order does not bring unity
(21:53) Reason, love, beauty: voluntary necessities
(26:49) Different notions of faith, the deeper meaning of “understanding”
(31:05) Higher order ethical virtue, psychopathology and maturation
(34:40) A very powerful argument against moral relativism
(38:55) Distributed cognition via correctly oriented dialogical machinery
(40:04) Peterson Academy: intellectual autonomy with the world’s greatest thinkers
(43:36) Pre-enrollment success: 30,000 students already
(47:57) X is a snake pit and a looking glass
(49:44) An eye to the future: building out digital meeting spaces and the potential for real life lectures and cruises
(52:03) Deeper into the “We Who Wrestle with God” tour, grace in the throes of fame and notoriety
(1:00:42) Vervaeke’s ongoing work with the meaning crisis
(1:04:13) “The fact that there is a meaning crisis is actually evidence that things are not meaningless”
(1:07:07) Vervaeke was raised as a fundamentalist Christian, religious dread
(1:11:15) Deep nihilism and science fiction, when Vervaeke met Socrates
(1:14:39) Self correction, Neoplatonism in Eastern philosophy
(1:17:29) Agape defined, why the Roman Empire really fell
(1:20:23) Embodying the logos versus adhering to the propositional, the Cartesian problem

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[JordanBPeterson]

Dr. John Vervaeke’s course “Intelligence, Rationality, Wisdom, and Spirituality ” as well as my courses, are available at petersonacademy.com

[stvbrsn]

Gotta love John’s sense of humor… the fact that he’s wearing Air Jordans is obviously not an accident!

[ancientfuture]

It’s conversations like this that make me INCREDIBLY thankful for the invention the internet and specifically...social media.

[juliantn]

I have just started listening but I want to say: One of my favorite pieces of media is the first public conversation you two had back on Mind Matters about 9 years ago.
I saw it close to when it aired and more than anything it is for conversations like that, and likely this, that I follow you.
I attended a few of your classes, watched all of your videos up until you got famous and watched all to many after that.
I have been dismayed by, caught up in and sometimes entertained by the controversial and political stuff but you have always been Professor Peterson to me.
Thank you both for sharing your wild philosophizing and love of humanity.
If you find yourself in darker days perhaps you can warm yourself with the knowledge that you helped me to love us all and our historic journey a good deal more.
I love you both, and as always, wish you all the best.

[Unfortunateevents-zd]

I understand the need for perfection. There is little to no room for mistakes but people absolutely love you Dr. Peterson.
If you are having an off day, it's okay. You are human.
Everything happens for a reason. Reasons are seasons.
We have your back to support you anyway we can.

[marcc]

Love watching these two riff off each other. It’s like watching improvisational jazz without the instruments.

[testpm-ilqq]

Love you two speaking together. The conversations are always so much more elevated than any others, with all due respect.

[stevenYmat]

From Ghana 🇬🇭 I admire theses two great thinkers a lot

[brookemoore]

Jordan, I don’t know if you’ll ever see this…. But I wanted to tell you that I went to see you at the height of COVID with my sister, and we were watching you like a hawk. We were watching to see how you treated people when a pandemic was raging and the societal pressure for you to distance yourself from your fans was immense. You ABSOLUTELY exceeded our expectations and showed us you were who you said you were. You didn’t make people wear masks, you shook your fans’ hands and let them take pictures with you, and you were HIGHLY attentive; listening and understanding people when they answered your questions. It was after these moments that I knew that who I was seeing on my tiny screen was who you actually were. You gave a lot of people hope that day. Thank you for being true to who you say you are. You are a true hero.

[brothabuddha]

Two of my favorite Professors together, can't go wrong with this one.

[lebenergy]

John verbeke I absolutely love your comment at 6 Minute mark. What I hear you saying is that you had a hole filld that was there in your life and now it's no longer there. That is an amazing amazing insight! God does bless you you are blessed however you play out your Blues in the world you are an amazing man I'm so grateful that you and Jordan are friends

[SpiritusMaximus]

Two of my favorite intellectuals, finally back together. This is the intellectual peak right here. A student of Socrates and a student of Christ in dia-logos.

[LetsFindOut]

this was an exceptionally engaging conversation. i didn't know Peterson was intentionally recruiting lecturers for Peterson Academy towards the explicit goal of an emergent source of the sacred in the world.

Love hearing about his more grand ambitions like this because they seem hopeful to a revolutionary degree yet are always grounded in and guided by reality. Gives me something noble to imitate.

[Gotchaaaaaa]

Vervaeke rocking Air Jordan Petersons?! Whaaaat!

[trappedshadow]

Dr John seems like a badass dude. I like his authenticity.

[Golgibaby]

Your conversations with Dr. Vervake and with Jonathan Pageau are ones that seem built on mutual respect so strong that you're able to bounce off of each other with great trust. The rapport is fun indeed and engaging to watch. Hence absolutely it becomes a ground that is fertile for thought expansion and transformation. Continue to be well, Dr. Peterson!

[mfanakithi]

I too have found these conversations enjoyable. It’s the stuff that helps deal with the mundane existence of life at times

[KBFalin]

Everyday you wear a suit. You never give up. The logos. The word. You taught me. I purchased your self authoring program. I am plan on spending money on the Peterson academy. Eff Canada. Even though I am not a big fan of the NY Times. They did say you are the brightest mind of the western world. I know that to be true. I own all your books and read them all. Lets say something simple. I love you. I love your mind. Life is an all in game. You tell the truth no matter what.Thanks for teaching me.

[danaturner]

Sure wish Allan Watt's was still alive... a debate or conversation between he and Jordan and John would be mind boggling!

[corinneb]

My most favourite of all the conversations on this podcast is when these two get together ☺️