The Real Problem With OW2 5v5 (The Debate Revisited)

SVB just hosted a star-studded debate with Hawk, Jake, AVRL, and Samito, and Coach Spilo is here to sum up, simplify, and translate the debate, in addition to adding his own thoughts to this unbelievably complex issue. It's inarguable- we're headed for 5v5, but it's also inarguable that 5v5 has its issues, and if we don't sort these out, perhaps Overwatch 2 is doomed to suffer in the future.

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Thanks for watching!

0:00 Intro
2:40 Matchmaking and Tank Variability
4:05 The Synergy Problem
8:25 Making Plays (Personal Responsibility)
12:40 OW2 vs. OW1 Design
18:00 Stacking
19:55 Death of the enabler
23:30 "Tanky" and Carry
25:25 the Crux of Combos
29:40 Map Control vs Grouping
31:40 "feel" of the Debate
32:30 6v6 Conclusion
33:30 5v5 Conclusion
35:05 2 cents for 5v5
36:00 My problems with 5v5

[diversquid]

Something that they didn't mention (mostly because its probably more of a casual take) is how fun tank duos are. One of the main reasons y loved playing tank was because I had someone by my side that was also having fun with me. There is nothing as good as the feeling I had playing Monkey Ball with a friend, and zooming around the map together. Playing Orisa Sigma and feeling like an immovable object together. Playing Rein Zarya and feeling like an unstoppable force TOGETHER. Tank Synergies was the fun part of playing tank. And at the end of the day, most people don't enjoy the game if they are not having fun, most people are casuals who just want to goof around with their favourite character. That is Overwatch for me, and always will be.

[rangerhooverow]

I think it should be mentioned that one of the things that made tank so unfun in OW1 at least for me (a tank player btw) was just how much stun there was. Sleep, punch, hook, freeze, flash, rock, Bash just made things painful sometimes. And that's not even going into the laundry list of soft CC. With OW2 they took away half the stuns in the game which was a great thing for tank players, but they also took away half the tank slots on a team meaning that the relative amount of stuns in the game feels unchanged. I would like to see 6v6 with less stun just to see how it would play.

[CoachSpilo]

I think the debate should have brought up details like Ana's Nade, Discord, Mei Slow, and Cass nade- what are some micro details that you think the debate failed to discuss?

ALSO, wanted to throw in a comment from Hawk who messaged me and had some thoughts to share about the possibility of 6v6 coming back:

"Hey I watched your video and I think you did a really good job making it easier to digest. Only thing I will heavily disagree with you on is that we have what we have now and we just need to accept it. People will not accept the new ranked system the same way people are not happy with tank. Player base is going down a lot from Q1 and I don’t have numbers to say but I have my doubts they all came back for season 6. I have my doubts small amounts of changes that happen so slowly will bring players back with the current blizzard reputation. It’s a bit of an echo chamber perhaps but I’ve been pleasantly surprised how many people truly miss 6v6 especially comments from the casual side. From the pro play side it doesn’t really matter I think most pro players preferred the depth but we aren’t the majority.

What I trying to say is I don’t think we should accept what we have now and I do think Overwatch at some point in the next few years will need something big to try to recapture a new and old player base because they have played all of their cards at this point."

[julicomo]

I think they missed a good debate about how supports were not reconfigured for 5v5 with only one tank. In 6v6 there were two tanks that had the healing split between them. However, now both healers are just hard focusing the tank. Meanwhile, the supports have been getting a ton of support, making them harder to kill. This a big reason why Ana is also op, anti cuts through all the healing and sustain, making things killable for a short time. I think they needed to talk more about slowing the healing damage creep in 5v5.

I tend to agree with Jake about the oppressive nature of two tanks in 6v6. I don't knownwhy Samito kept ignoring that point, especially when he is a dps player and knows how it feels when two tanks dive on a dps that isn't Tracer.

[maciejasz]

I remember this quote from someone explaining HOTS: "There is always an off tank". I believe it was Kyle Fergusson. If you don't have a dedicated second frontliner (may be a bruiser or a melee assassin, not necessarily a real tank) your squishy ranged hero will effectively become the off tank, when the enemy team steps on his face. OW is different, but I'm not so sure that rule doesn't apply.

[PeakedYrsAgo]

This comment may be a bit off topic. After watching the group up podcast debate I noticed a theme that’s not talked about a lot. I believe for most players, overwatch’s pinnacle is because of its teamwork and synergy. It’s also it’s greatest downfall for the average player, and the reason I think tank role has always struggled.

[Real_MisterSir]

There is still a major aspect that all these debates seem to neglect, and challenge my viewpoint if you would like, but I think it is arguably the most important one.


*TLDR;*
Point 1) 6v6 ensures the tank duo is the most prominent synergy, which anchors the team and makes it so everyone else plays around that anchor and are more likely to pursue the same goal at any given moment.

Point 2) 6v6 establishes a longer resource trade in the early stage of a fight, before any decisive action is taken. This helps weed out random rng and random golden shots, even if it feels slower and "less exciting" initially, it is important for consistency.

Point 3) 6v6 has a greater buffer zone when you go from neutral -> disadvantage, easing the transition and giving players at a disadvantage an easier time to fall back and regroup/recollect resources. This in turn minimizes risk of instant steamroll.



Yes, tank synergies were powerful in OW1, and I would say definitely more game defining on average, than the support duos (outside of some niche cases like release Brig). In OW2 the synergy shift has more definitively moved to the supports, who absolutely control lobbies, not just for themselves, but also for how they synergize with every other role, especially the solo tank, because there is no other synergy potential that can outvalue the raw potential supports have in OW2.

So coming to my main point, having the tank synergy being very dominant, is from a balance perspective a 50/50 between OW1 and OW2, but having a strong tank synergy rather than a strong support synergy, defines what the anchor of the team is. And THIS is, arguably, vastly more important than the balance and power distribution seen in isolation.

In 6v6 where you have tank synergy, it automatically ensures your team's anchor is centered around the frontline, and this is suuuuper important for maintaining harmony in matches, and avoiding rng chaos and anarchy. This anchor frontline ensures everyone on the team are more likely to be focused on doing the same thing, and having the same goal - irrespective of which tank synergy is more powerful. In 5v5 where you can avoid the tank if you want, and the anchor synergy is the support line, now there is no center of focus for everyone on the team to steer towards, and this makes it far more likely for 2 or 3 players to pursue different objectives. This is exactly what causes the apparent imbalance of matchmaking. It has little to do with actual game balance, it's simply a natural byproduct of the exponentially increased likelihood that multiple people fail to be nudged towards the same goal, screwing any hope of team work in the process. This directly leads to a much higher degree of rng outcomes that make matches feel like a coin flip of steamrolling one way or the other.

A further point here is, that in 6v6 if your anchor starts cracking and you lose a tank, you still have 1 tank in reserve that can ease the transition from neutral fight -> disadvantage -> fall back and regroup. You are still losing, but the gradual state of loss is more linear and predictable. In 5v5, when you lose your frontline, you go from 0-100 in an instant, there is no buffer zone because now it's just an enemy gigachad tank with 2 supports spamming them with immortality abilities, running you down with nothing to slow them down. The lack of a buffer zone means there is no gradual progression, no consistent exchange of abilities to gain an advantage over time - it's basically whoever hits the golden shot first just gets to roll the other team. Sure you get more quickly to the "exciting" stage of the fight from the getgo, but you also introduce heaps of rng outcomes by doing so, because there is no battle for advantage. You just jump straight into it, and when you have the more anarchistic nature of 5v5, the rng basically dictates most outcomes regardless of your team's player skill in isolation.

[WhiteuElya]

im suprised u thought leauge is 4v4, its 5v5 like most of the competitive games

[Extremeredfox]

Imagine 6 v 6 now with Mauga, Ramatra, and Junker Queen in. I feel they would have been solid additions since original Mauga could help break down double shield, and Rama and Junker queen if they get up close aren't impacted by shields.

Also, the balance in the game was a bit uncreative. They could have done passives, or allowed certain combos to be stronger, which would have added another cerebral element to the game and made it more fun for 6 v 6. Case in point.

- Illari's light attacks, Rein's firestrike, and Ashe's dynamite should do a bit more damage to Mei's ice wall, than normal, and if fire striking through allies being frozen by meis freeze it takes a little bit longer to freeze them.

- Junkrat Ashe, Junkerqueen and Roadhog are the least impacted by Sombra's hack due to their analog mechanical weapons, but all omnics are greatly impacted by hack.

- Winston's primal rage punch will cancel out Doomfist punch
- Xen can't be caught in Junk rat trap b/c he hovers.
- Genji should reflect Hanzo's Ult (like in the cinematic).
- Zen's healing orb is slightly faster on Omnics. -
- Mei's freeze last a little bit longer on Junkrat, b/c Junkrat hates the cold.
vicinity

[aeneasbarone]

Why not just get rid of open queue and put 6vs6 instead, so you can choose between 5vs5 and 6vs6 in unranked and ranked.

[wilIis]

I had way more fun with 6v6 in every role. Having an off tank made the games more fun and felt more strategic. I'm crazy and would welcome more than 6v6 if they had maps to handle that. I'd be okay with less crowd control. I'm a casual support player who played dps and enjoyed playing off tank and think it's an important role that is missing.

[BagelBoi]

My main issue with the 2 tanks is equivilent to one unkillable tank is that a lot of the tanks dont feel unkillable (you just instantly explode sometimes due to like damage boost, discord orb, anti nade, and general damage creep on characters that can spam into tanks like torb and bastion) and the tanks that do feel unkillable feel like theyre too reliant on their team while they just stand there soaking up cooldowns and damage (orisa was basically unkillable but did no damage, ramattra plays like a block character rather than a punch character)

[raleb]

I actually was curious to hear spilo's thoughts on this, and was disappointed when he wasnt in that debate, so this is a very welcome video

[djamesconner]

Honestly the one thing i noticed that makes 5v5 way more annoying not is the random rules that they have to add for things to work 3 second sleep less cooldown on ally bubble what goes through shield emp being changed what it affects role passives. Its just annoying that they keep adding new rules stacking on top of other things. I personally played tank more in ow1 and havent played it in 2 for months.

[jdavis]

People say they like 5v5 better, but you never got to try 6v6 with no CC

[SmlezX]

I dont know how to explain it but i found tank way more fun back then. Now i just find myself never queing the role at all.

[dantheman]

"How can you make Rein Hog work?" Ok how can I make Rein work if they are running a Orisa? So we switch from having bad synergies to having useless tanks because counter picked.

[xXZinogreXx]

Why do Healers get to keep their synergy and be the "New tank roll" of the game and completly make it harder for the solo tank to do their job. I feel like the whole purpose of tank was to synergize with another tank, but we gotta do that with supports now. My only problem with that is me as the tank, get blamed for it all now if i make a mistake. Now it just feels like its harder to get to where i want on tank in 5v5 format since everyone counter picks you😐

[skrrrtsusman]

my issue with solo tank, is that now since you're the sole tank you blow up if focused, or feel unkillable because of the buffs if you aren't

[williehawkinsii]

27:30 that argument can be shared with about every single hero combination especially since they Nerf combinations like Anna's Nano on Reaper's death blossom orisha during Kitsune Rush.
Almost forgot Mercy damage bus got me deuce because of his interaction with sojourn