Examining China's Social Credit System

Josh assesses just how dystopian modern day China is based upon factors such as the social credit system, surveillance state and use of forced labour.

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[RockSolitude]

This is what I have a hard time driving home to westerners about Japan. It’s probably one of the highest trust societies on this planet and there is a lack of hard rules because of it. Foreigners think the lack of official rules is free license.

[colinr]

The 'high trust' idea suggests the reason why certain Western countries are importing in high numbers. Maybe they are in the process of creating the 'low trust' state in which the Social Credit score can be / has to be implemented.

[rakeau]

The High Trust Society vs Low Trust Society is an interesting thing I've not given any thought to before. In the immigration context, is perhaps one of the big issues that High Trust Societies are importing millions of people from Low Trust Societies? Hmmm.

[stevenmcgrath]

Remember folks, the Chi-Com social credit system was developed withe the help of Google . . .
Red Dragon anyone ? ? ?

[Vile_Entity_]

Went into a Boots Pharmacy yesterday and they have gone over to no cash. Will never visit one again. Also an elderly lady walked out.
I don’t know about the actual Boots stores but they will never be visited again.
Macdonalds I have never been in since being turned away because I had no mask back in 2020.
Just wished everybody took my stance and they would soon stop this shizer.

[unvaccinatedAndPureBlood]

Look at the case of MMA fighter, Xu Xiadong. We all know that most martial arts is just for show, and the movie industry in China is mostly kung fu. Xu claims most of kung fu is fake and goes to prove it by beating up kung fu masters in China. Now his social credit score is so low that he is unable to buy a house or travel.

All because the movie industry and China wanted to protect their IP 😢

[colinr]

The big shift happened when Xi Jingping took the reigns of power and instead of the slow 'opening up' of China under Hu Jintao, Xi has reimposed the old autocratic system of government of previous eras, and maybe worse because he's recently disappeared Hu from his cabinet and consolidated himself as a new Mao-style leader. Interestingly this beginning of this appears to have occurred around the 2008 Beijing Olympics, where Xi Jingping was credited with a lot of the success of those Olympic Games and that helped him rise to leader.

[raumograeywolf]

And if you don't have a credit card and dont participate in that debt manufacturing system, well you basically become in the same boat as those with the lowest of credit scores

[evensgrey]

The chemical added to milk in China to boost the apparent protein level was melamine, commonly used to make plastics.

This works because protein content is difficult, complex, and expensive to measure. Measuring nitrogen content can be used as a proxy for protein, and is extremely accurate for foods with a consistent and well characterised protein profile like milk. Unless, of course, somebody adds non-protein nitrogenous substances like melamine.

[annnecessary]

Love listening to your podcast before bed. Gute Nacht from Germany ❤

[colinr]

Glad to see you talking about this. Especially since other countries attempted to implement it a couple of years ago before backing down. But for how long, we'll see...

[BjrnFriedrichsen]

6:00 its still going on, the worst of the offending things happening now is "tofu dreg construction", just means that building/constructions can collapse without warning or indication.

[martyn]

(posted on the website)
Thanks, Josh/Thomas. That was a very impressive overview. I lived in China for years & worked in the HQ of a large chain store. Part of the reason Chinese stores are keen on getting rid of staff is because, unlike Britain, staff do most of the stealing - by far - not shoplifters. Also, security guards often increase theft by, for example, allowing their family to come in and shoplift.

My best pal, a Canadian, still lives in Beijing & agrees with your general point about the Social Credit system being (at the moment, at least) overhyped. He means, average law-abiding citizens are barely affected by it.

Previously, many millions lived under fake documentation, which enabled them to move from the countryside to the city for work. That movement is now being reversed, mainly because of rising unemployment in the cities. For example, the over 50s aren't allowed to work in some cities any more, they're being forced back to the farm.

At the moment, as you say, local govts (fierce rivals, not partners, of the central govt in Beijing) are going bankrupt. First, the poorer provinces like Guiyang. A theory by a Taiwanese China-watcher predicts the end of the CCP will be two years after provinces start going bankrupt - we're about 12 months into that at the moment.

President Xi threatens the super-rich and demands 1/3 of their riches 'to be left alone'. Local govts come up with endless new ways of fining residents for misdemeanours, teachers are starting to go unpaid (always the poor teachers first) and a myriad of similar schemes and tricks delay the inevitable slide towards bankruptcy. Local govts can't lease land for money any more - previously a huge earner for them.

However, remember the CCP literally control every penny in China and that gives them room for plenty of jiggery-pokery not possible in the West. That's a huge advantage for them.

President Xi is purging rivals like Stalin on a bad hair day. Notably, even his own supposed allies who owe him their promotions - a very bad sign. Xi's also not surrounded by 'yes men' he's surrounded by 'silent' men. Many commentators point out examples (endless lockdown being the obvious one) of Xi being completely detached from reality, as no one round him is brave enough to tell him the truth.

The big worry is, will Xi attack Taiwan, rather than see the country collapse, if he has nothing to lose? However, questions have also been raised about if the PLA will fight. Many top commanders have their own power bases upon which some may choose to use against the govt, not Taiwan. Many PLA top brass have been purged/killed, even princelings (children of the original CCP elite).

Western commentators on China always omit one extremely important aspect, which to China-born dissidents is one of the most important: interparty rivalry & factional strife within the CCP. The CCP has always been a Darwinist/dog-eat-dog environment. At times like these, that increases ten-fold.

The three main factions within the CCP (or at least what's left of them after Xi's recent attacks) are the late Jiang Zemin’s faction, 'the Shanghai Gang' (pro-West, pro-economy). Hu Jintao’s the 'Communist Youth League' faction (pro-reform) and the Xi Jinping faction (pro-Mao).

Remember Hu Jintao being dragged off the main stage at the 20th Party Conference in 2022? The above paragraph should help explain why it happened.

I'll recommend a YouTube channel, by a China-born American lady, who is the best commentator I've found on interparty strife: Lei's Real Talk. Anyone here, not just Josh, interested in China, would gain a huge amount of additional info from Lei's weekly livestreams.

[metalcore]

The chemical you were attempting to remember is Melamine

[TheAlison]

4:37 "urban density helps hide criminality" foreign-loving urbans who must love foreigns because they don't know their neighbor and need themselves to be loved back also help hide criminality.
8:43 I know how to pronounce these just from listening to the guys over at ADV Podcast / The China Show. Highly recommend as a source of information.

[edmundblackaddercoc]

I sdon't remember voting for companies to hold my credit score.

[mr.normalguy]

I love president Xi Jing Ping: +10 Social Credits 😀👍

I love Taiwan: -1, 000, 000 Social Credits 😱👎

[Peak_Aussieman]

The first social credit system that we know of was probably Australia's ticket of leave system.

[xhodnzk]

High trust societies in rural areas seem like a thing of the past because of the drug trade & rise in crime. I grew up in a rural area & everyone was suspicious of each other because we can’t tell who’s a criminal. Old folks were much more “Howdy!” People while boomers & younger are “get off my property!” People

[theloniuspunk]

Everyone has freedom of choice at all moments of life