Reactions to Walter Veith Denying Christ's Sonship

In Reactions to Walter Veith Denying Christ's Sonship we examine the question of what it means by the phrase "only-begotten".

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[maxinericheson]

The organized SDA church tries to tell us the trinity is a mystery!

[ctakiute]

Seventh day adventist were led to a huge error by Leroy E. Froom, that was catholic priest and freemason. The fundamental principles were well established by 1890, as it's available in the SDA records. But Froom not only questioned the author of the fundamental principles, but also said that these fundamental principles were not the official statement of the church. So in 1930's he published new fundamental beliefs. Daniel Mesa, Nader Mansour, Adrian Ebens, talking rock sabbath chappel, and the forgotten pillars all have wonderful and deep studies on subject. And what it does is bringing such a revelation of Jesus and God that is far beyond any bible message that anymore can preach, and the understanding is astonishing.

[delsbeth]

A complete offering has been made; for “God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son, ”—not a son by creation, as were the angels, nor a son by adoption, as is the forgiven sinner, BUT A SON BEGOTTEN IN THE EXPRESS IMAGE OF THE FATHER’S PERSON, and in all the brightness of his majesty and glory, one equal with God in authority, dignity, and divine perfection. In him dwelt all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. ST May 30,   1895, par. 3

[davidmoorman]

It has always amazed me how a man that has shared so much Truth with me and countless others via his lectures on theology, religious & general history can be swayed, nay almost duped, by an obviously pagan and unbilbical doctrine as is the Trinity.

Still I admire and immensely respect Professor Walter Veith and always will. It will forever leave me baffled how one can call themselves a Seventh-day Adventist while rejecting and dismissing the Pioneer's of the church.

[DonjohnsonBG]

One important thing that many fail to realize about John 3:16 “Only Begotten “ especially is that Jesus said these words(to Nicodemus) and I know he knows what it really means, so Who wants to debate with Jesus. These scriptures shed light on Only Begotten John 8:42 and John 16:27-28

[rudolfberki]

You are absolutely right brethren, Jesus is trully the literal Son of God. It is so sad to see so many Seventh-day Adventists who believe He is not. Even the unclean spirits know better than those who deny it. For example, in Mark 3:11 we read, I quote,

"And unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God."

Now, if Jesus were not the Son of God, these evil spirits would have cried aloud from the rooftops calling Him a liar who pretends to be the Son of God whereas He is not. But it is not so simply because He is the literal Son of God. How? It is not for us to enquire, as it has not been revealed to us.

Regarding the trinity, I was born into a SDA family and always believed in the ‘trinity: god the father, god the son, and god the holy spirit” doctrine until recently; however, studying the Scriptures with the Spirit of Prophecy and our Pioneers beliefs, I can wholeheartedly say I was dead wrong and all those who believe as such are wrong, too, as the trinity doctrine is a false doctrine which was brought into the church primarily by LeRoy Froom who I found out was a Jesuit Catholic priest and more likely joined the SDA church for the sole purpose to deceive and mislead many thus leading them to perdition. Please study the Scriptures and Spirit of Prophecy diligently with prayer and find out for yourself that NONE of our Pioneers nor Sister White believed in the trinity. For example, she refuted Dr Kellog and a preacher by the name Chapman who came to believe in “god the father, god the son and god the holy spirit”, three gods in unity or “triune god”, thus “god the holy spirit” being a different person from the Father and the Son [Jesus Christ.] Here just a few quotes from Sister White and some of our Pioneers on this matter, which trinitarians are ignoring if not despising:

"Cumbered with humanity, Christ could not be in every place personally; therefore it was altogether for their advantage that He should leave them, go to His Father, and send the Holy Spirit to be His successor on earth. The Holy Spirit is Himself, divested of the personality of humanity, and independent thereof. He would represent Himself as present in all places by His Holy Spirit, as the Omnipresent. “But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall [although unseen by you] teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. ... Nevertheless, I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.” {Lt119-1895.18}

"The Son of God shared the Father's throne, and the glory of the eternal, self-existent One encircled both. . . . none but Christ, the Only Begotten of God, could fully enter into His purposes, and to Him it was committed to execute the mighty counsels of His will" (PP, p. 36).

"After the earth was created, and the beasts upon it, the Father and Son carried out their purpose, which was designed before the fall of Satan, to make man in their own image. They had wrought together in the creation of the earth and every living thing upon it. And now God says to his Son, "Let us make man in our image." (ST Jan. 9, 1879; par. 13).

"In the beginning the Father and the Son had rested upon the Sabbath after Their work of creation." (DA p.769, par.2).

“The Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of the Father, is truly God in infinity, but not in personality. Ellen White, Upward Look, page 367

“Christ has given HIS Spirit as a divine power.” — (E.G. White, RH, Nov 19, 1908)

“How few realize that Jesus, unseen, is walking by their side!” — (E.G. White, 14MR 125.3)

“He [Christ] is an unseen presence in the PERSON of the HOLY SPIRIT, ” — (E.G. White, DG 185.2, 1897)

“The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God; it is also the Spirit of Christ.” U. Smith, GC Daily Bulletin, Vol. 4, March 1891, pp. 146, 147

“Here we find that the Holy Spirit is both the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ.” E. J. Waggoner, Christ and His Righteousness, p. 23, 1890

“We learn from this language that when we speak of the Spirit of God we are really speaking of his presence and power.” J. N. Loughborough, Review & Herald, September 13, 1898

“The divine Spirit that the world’s Redeemer promised to send is the presence and power of God.” Signs of the Times, November 23, 1891

“We want the Holy Spirit, which is Jesus Christ.” E. G. White, Lt66, April 10, 1894

This is another statement of Sister White which says, I quote:

“Before the entrance of evil, there was peace and joy throughout the universe. All was in perfect harmony with the Creator’s will. Love for God was supreme, love for one another impartial. Christ the Word, the only begotten of God, was one with the eternal Father, —one in nature, in character, and in purpose, —the only being in all the universe that could enter into all the counsels and purposes of God.” (Great Controversy, 493)

If the trinity is true, then, how is it that Christ was the ONLY BEING in all the universe that could enter into ALL THE COUNSELS and PURPOSES of God? Where was ’god the holy spirit?’ After all, if he is ‘god’ being co-eternal and co-equal with the Father, how is it that he could not enter into all the counsels and purposes of God?

Also, in 1 Corinthians 8:6 we read, I quote, "But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him." Apostle Paul made it very clear and plain that “to us there is but one God, the Father" and "one Lord Jesus Christ." If the ONE GOD would consist of three divine and co-eternal beings, then, he would have said "to us there is but one God: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, " but he did not say that. But, if for arguments sake, the trinity doctrine is true, then, in this verse we would end up with two Christs as the ONE GOD would include the “god the son” and with another one Lord Jesus Christ, but it is not so! If this piece of Scripture does not open our spiritual eyes, then, believe me, nothing would.

It is interesting to note that in the New Testament we find ONLY two Divine Beings, the Father and the Son. For example, Jesus told His disciples He is the Comforter. (John 14:16-18) In verse 18 Jesus called the "Comforter" the "Spirit of Truth" and the "Spirit of Truth" is none other than Christ Himself! (John 14:6)

Another example, in John 10:30 we read, I quote, Jesus said "I and my Father are one." This verse does not say, "I and the Father, and the Holy Spirit are one." Also, in the book of Revelation we find only two Divine Beings sitting on the throne, but no where do we find the Holy Spirit as a separate being to the Father and to the Son. We have to be very careful not to take the Scripture out of context since it interprets itself, and throughout the Scripture the Holy Spirit is referred to as the Spirit of God and of Christ. This is exactly what Sister White wrote about; yet, we are so keen to deny those teachings by replacing them with false teachings brought in from Babylon.

We MUST be very careful in what we believe as the devil is running to and fro on the face of this earth to deceive as many as he can. Therefore, study the Scriptures, the Spirit of Prophecy and the beliefs of our Pioneers for yourselves and let none foul you. We need to do like the Bereans, who went home and studied the Scriptures for themselves to see if it were so!

[unknowngod]

Review and Herald July 9th 1895 says:
The Eternal Father, the unchangeable one, gave his only begotten Son, tore from his bosom Him who was made in the Express image of his person, and sent him down to earth to reveal how greatly he loved mankind."

[faithexplorers]

I think what people are missing is the fact that Jesus was BORN from the father, NOT a created being! EVERYTHING was created by the Son and through Him. He came OUT of the Father, and was not Created like Trinitarians assume we believe! I was a trinitarian my whole life and never assumed to question it. But one day, a few months ago, I prayed that God would show me if there is any truth I still need to see. And then I discovered this topic. It was a shock at first, but I always go from the standpoint that I have to look at all the evidence and accept every truth based on what sayest the Lord! I will always put my own perceptions aside because the heart is evil continuously! Let God's word speak plainly for itself!

[theresaadams]

Praying for Br Walter. He’s such a clever astute man, I wonder at him not seeing the truth.

[ogjz]

Just wanted to add that God gives us an example of begotten from the beginning in Adam and Eve.. Adam was made from the ground by God and Eve comes from Adams rib or Bosom.. Jesus came from the bosom of the father from the beginning but the father was before him as Adam and Eve we're made the same day but Adam was before her..

[maxinericheson]

I didn’t know Walter Veith denied the Son ship of Christ! Jesus Christ IS God’s Only begotten Son!!!

[timothyley]

Even if they could get rid of 'begotten', they still haven't dealt with the Son. So now their Bible says: God gave His unique Son (but not really).

[clydelangley]

It is obvious that a father must precede a son (or daughter). So, if Jesus is the only begotten son of Elohim, He must have existed after the Father, who was there from eternity. In Scripture or nature there will always be an example of the type and antitype. As an example, the state of the dead is found in the process of a caterpillar as our human status on earth and when we die, we sleep until the resurrection. So the caterpillar "dies" and becomes a pupae and then on the "resurrection" it becomes a butterfly with a new "spiritual" body. Following on this line of thought during Adam's sleep, Elohim took a rib and Eve was created. In effect Eve was part of Adam at the moment he was created, because at his creation the rib Eve was part of him. Here we have the example of the type and antitype in the only begotten Son of the Father. Thus, in like manner, Jesus was part of the Father from eternity, but came forth later, probably trillions of years ago. Why is this such a difficult subject to understand - the Father and the only begotten Son?

[th-rdxh]

*There is no one who can explain the mystery of the incarnation of Christ.* Yet we know that He came to this earth and lived as a man among men. *The man Christ Jesus was not the Lord God Almighty, yet Christ and the Father are one.* The Deity did not sink under the agonizing torture of Calvary, yet it is none the less true that “God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. EGW

[th-rdxh]

John 4:24

God is Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
God is not a Spirit.... GOD IS SPIRIT /RUACH.

[lailaambjornsen]

Thank you.... I have never figured out how people believed in the trinity...role playing.????when the Bible made it so clear... that God the Father gave his only begotten son...so thanks for clearing the mater up. This was very good and very clear. His attitude, I see it every where..it has become a topic we are all petrified to bring up. Has the Lord made them believe the lie because of their rejection of him

[larrybedouin]

“And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee *before* the world was.”
{John 17:5}

[seekertruth]

The very purpose of John’s gospel was to proof that Jesus was indeed the divine Son of God.

John wrote his gospel as the first century was drawing to a close and he gave the very purpose for his gospel by saying: “31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.” John 20:31

There are those who say that the term ‘Son of God’, like the word begotten is only with respect to the incarnation. The whole point and the very heart of John’s gospel was to show that Jesus is indeed the Son of God. John makes no reference to the virgin birth or the events associated with Bethlehem with regards the incarnation.

"Jesus was the Majesty of heaven, the beloved Commander of the angels, whose delight was to do his pleasure. He was one with God, in the bosom of the Father; yet He thought it not a thing to be desired to be equal with God while man was lost in sin and misery. He stepped down from his throne." Bible Echo and Signs of the Times 3-15-1893

No where in scripture is the term ‘monogenes’ [which they claimed to mean unique or one of a kind]. As I have mentioned in another comment monogenes does not mean ‘only begotten’. he Greek word monadikos (μοναδικός) means unique or one of a kind.

Did God pretend, act, or lie when He said that He gave His only begotten Son to the world? “He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.” [1 John 5:10]

Even Mark wrote his gospel by beginning “The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.” Mark 1:1
Like John, Mark never made reference to the virgin birth of the events surrounding it.

"Christ was the Son of God; He had been one with Him before the angels were called into existence. He had ever stood at the right hand of the Father; His supremacy, so full of blessing to all who came under its benignant control, had not heretofore been questioned." Patriarchs and Prophets p. 38

"Before the fall of man, the Son of God had united with his Father in laying the plan of salvation." Review & Herald, September 13, 1906 par. 4.

"The existence of Christ before His incarnation is not measured by figures" Signs of the Times, May 3, 1899.

"The divine Son of God was the only sacrifice of sufficient value to fully satisfy the claims of God's perfect law. The angels were sinless, but of less value than the law of God. [Jesus was equal value] They were amenable to the law. They were messengers to do the will of Christ, and before him to bow. They were created beings, [Christ was not] and probationers. Upon Christ…no obligation was laid…to undertake the work of atonement. It was a voluntary sacrifice." - Red 9.6 [bracketed comments added]

At the baptism the Personal testimony of the Father’s audible voice came from heaven. “And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” Matt.3:17

What greater testimony could there ever be that this. Either Jesus and the Father are two separate individual persons, or Jesus created an illusion that a voice is coming from heaven. We must take cognisance that it was this very disbelieve in God’s word that brought about the first sin in the Garden of Eden.

The Father’s voice was also heard at the transfiguration.
The Bible records “While he [Peter] yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.” Matt.17:5

Again, either Jesus and the Father are two separate individual persons or Jesus was a ventriloquist. Jesus has always been the Son of God. Being the Son was not a position to which Jesus eventual achieved at the incarnation. It was one that He had held from the beginning with God His Father. This is why John began his gospel with the words: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” John 1:1

The terms ‘Father’ and ‘Son’ therefore were not words selected by the Bible writers to describe a beautiful and loving relationship between them both.

“Let the brightest example the world has yet seen be your example, rather than the greatest and most learned men of the age, who know not God, nor Jesus Christ whom he has sent. The Father and the Son alone are to be exalted.” (Ellen White, The Youth’s Instructor, July 7, 1898)

That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. 1 John 1:3

"The greatness of God cannot be measured or comprehended. And that doctrine that denies the absolute Godhead of Jesus Christ, denies also the Godhead of the Father; for no man knoweth the Son but the Father. The mightiest created intelligence cannot grasp divinity. The principalities and powers of heaven are overwhelmed with the vastness of the theme of Christ's character and the mystery of the union of divinity and humanity." Signs of the Times 06-27-95

"Christ was the Son of God; He had been one with Him before the angels were called into existence. He had ever stood at the right hand of the Father; His supremacy, so full of blessing to all who came under its benignant control, had not heretofore been questioned." Patriarchs and Prophets p. 38

[God's] Son Jesus Christ...was made of the seed of David according to the flesh. [Rom. 1:3]. a body has [God] prepared [for Christ] (Psalm 40:6); Lo, I come…to do thy will. [Heb].

Behold what manner of love the Father has given unto us. [1 Jh 3:1]. For God [the Father] so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son. [Jh 3:16]. He [God the Father] that spared not his own Son, but delivered him [Christ] up for us all. [Rom. 8:32]. In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because God sent his only begotten Son into the world that we might live. [1Jn.4:9]

"The spirit of Jesus slept in the tomb with His body, and did not wing its way to heaven, there to maintain a separate existence, and to look down upon the mourning disciples embalming the body from which it had taken flight. All that comprised the life and intelligence of Jesus remained with His body in the sepulcher; and when He came forth it was as a whole being; He did not have to summon His spirit from heaven." SDABC V5 EGW comment on John 10:18 pp 1150, 1151; from 3 Spirit of Prophecy p. 203, 204 (1878); Redemption: or the Resurrection of Christ and His Ascension (1877 pamphlet).

[maxinericheson]

Thomas, after feeling His nail pierced hands 🙌 & His pierced side; said “My Lord & my God!”

[andrewellis]

Few understand the Incarnation of the Only Begotten Son of God correctly, as illustrated in the Sanctuary Symbolism. Gold represents Divinity. Silver represents Divinity in humanity. Brass represents humanity connected with Divinity, and Clay represents humanity. One of the meanings of Iron is pierced. shalom.