Dr. E.J. Chichilnisky: How the Brain Works, Curing Blindness & How to Navigate a Career Path

In this episode, my guest is Dr. E.J. Chichilnisky, Ph.D., a professor of neurosurgery and ophthalmology at Stanford University. He studies how we see and uses that information to build artificial eyes that restore vision to the blind.

We discuss how understanding the retina (the light-sensing brain tissue that lines the back of our eyes) is critical to knowing how our brain works more generally.

We discuss brain augmentation with biologically informed prostheses, robotics, and AI and what this means for medicine and humanity.

We also discuss E.J.’s unique journey into neuroscience and how changing fields multiple times, combined with some wandering, taught him how to guide his decision-making in all realms of life.

This episode ought to be of interest to anyone interested in learning how the brain works from a world-class neuroscientist, those interested in the future of brain therapeutics and people seeking inspiration and tools for navigating their own professional and life journey.

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Timestamps
00:00:00 Dr. E.J. Chichilnisky
00:02:31 Sponsors: Eight Sleep, ROKA & BetterHelp
00:06:06 Vision & Brain; Retina
00:11:23 Retina & Visual Processing
00:18:37 Vision in Humans & Other Animals, Color
00:23:01 Studying the Human Retina
00:29:48 Sponsor: AG1
00:31:16 Cell Types
00:36:00 Determining Cell Function in Retina
00:43:39 Retinal Cell Types & Stimuli
00:49:27 Retinal Prostheses, Implants
01:00:25 Artificial Retina, Augmenting Vision
01:06:05 Sponsor: InsideTracker
01:07:12 Neuroengineering, Neuroaugmentation & Specificity
01:17:01 Building a Smart Device, AI
01:20:02 Neural Prosthesis, Paralysis; Specificity
01:25:21 Neurodegeneration; Adult Neuroplasticity; Implant Specificity
01:34:00 Career Journey, Music & Dance, Neuroscience
01:42:55 Self-Understanding, Coffee; Self-Love, Meditation & Yoga
01:47:50 Body Signals & Decisions; Beauty
01:57:49 Zero-Cost Support, Spotify & Apple Reviews, Sponsors, YouTube Feedback, Momentous, Social Media, Neural Network Newsletter

#HubermanLab #Neuroscience #EyeHealth

[chrisisdunn]

This comment is for Huberman in general not necessarily this episode in particular. I just wanted to express the admiration and gratitude I have for this channel. Personally I experienced depression in my youth that was life threatening to say the least, I say that to illustrate how much of a change you’ve made to my life. Through years of therapy and changes to my health, many MANY of which were inspired by you, I am the happiest person I know. In face people come to be regularly asking for advice on mental and physical health and I recommend your work so much it’s become a bit of a joke in my circle how much I advertise for you.
What’s more admirable to me is not that you have made vast improvements to my life and secondly to those around me, but how much of a change you have on the rest of the world. Mental and physical health is such a hard beast to conquer but it’s so important, probably the most important thing we will ever do. And you, Dr.Huberman, have done more to positively impact the world than any else I’ve ever seen. You share rigorously scientific information that is trust worthy, articulated in a way that makes sense, tools that are beyond useful and you do it for free and on such a vast scale. I cannot imagine a more fulfilling life than that and I hope to one day be just like you.

[TheCamilaM]

I would love an episode about dance and neuroscience! A hug to all fellow dancers, professionals or not!

[mwd]

I have watched a few of your podcasts on YouTube; the ones that grabbed my interest. I am 74 years old. The ones that I watched have, without question, improved the quality of my life. Many thanks for providing these opportunities.

[belrapley]

Hi Dr Huberman I have retinitis pigmentosia I’m almost blind now in both eyes I have no retina and there is currently no cure for it at this stage but every day I appreciate I’m still here on this earth I live through joy and gratitude I learn to look at my obsticals through my inner strength
Every day I live through adventure and love I laugh at myself a lot as I bump into things a lot but ahh well l can’t help it
Last night I listened to your video I felt so many feelings for you I’m so proud of you and inspired from where you were as a child and all the work you put in your life to where you are today your story touched my heart and I felt sad for you when you were taken away from your family but as I know that where we find our strength from inner pain we find our inner strength
I appreciate the work you do and I’m very grateful thank you so much for

[olgazavilohhina]

¡Hola Profe! Thank You for a beautiful conversation with such an insightful Guest. Our eyes are not only two pieces of our brain, but also windows of our soul. Thank You for all Your hard work and care for all of us.

[mr_savage]

Hello Professor Huberman, I dont know if you can see this message, I am listening to your podcast since 2022, and they have helped me alot in fixing my unhealthy lifestyle. I would forever be grateful for that. Keep inspiring! Keep Helping!
Regards

[Maggieiaconeta]

What I can say is just “Wow”, amazing episode Dr Huberman . I loved when your guest formulated you a question? Lot of passion and engagement ❤

[tstatus]

my friend actually lost her vision to an auto immune disease 6 years ago and we pray it comes back one day. im practicing growing lionsmane and other medicinal mushrooms to hopefully help her vision return one day

[patriciapagan]

This is wonderful! My beautiful daughter has Retinitis Pigmentosa (CERKL) and is totally blind (except some dark/light). She gets around with a great guide dog and, in fact, works for an organization that gives the gift of these dogs to the blind and visually impaired, but oh, to think that one day, she will see me and look into my eyes again. See a sunrise, sunset, fireworks, stars, and all the beauty in the world. Thank you Drs Chichilnisky and Huberman. Its great to know that the research is moving forward.

[adrianagNeuroFit]

EJ just became one of my favorite neuroscientists 🙌🏽💜🙌🏽

[dameanvil]

01:50 🤔 Chichilnisky describes his unconventional career path, emphasizing the importance of exploring diverse interests and experiences.
09:11 🎯 Chichilnisky discusses the significance of focusing on the retina for understanding vision, highlighting the potential for engineering solutions to restore sight.
15:40 📸 Explanation of how the retina processes visual information, likening it to Photoshop filters or different movies, showcasing the complexity of human vision.
17:44 🦌 Comparison of human vision with other species, illustrating the unique features of the human neuro retina and its limitations in perceiving certain aspects of the visual world.
20:29 🌈 Humans perceive color based on three primary colors, while other animals can capture more wavelength information.
21:51 🦉 Rodents possess retinal cells sensitive to looming shadows, helping them avoid bird attacks, showcasing how different species have unique visual needs.
23:11 🧪 Research on retinal cells involves intensive experiments, especially when studying human retinas obtained from deceased donors, requiring swift action to preserve tissue viability.
26:15 🏥 Human retinas are obtained from organ donors shortly after death, allowing for crucial research into vision and retinal function.
27:26 🧠 Sophisticated electrophysiology equipment is used to study retinal ganglion cells, enabling simultaneous recording and stimulation to understand their electrical activity.
29:44 ⚡ Electrical stimulation of retinal cells is explored for potential vision restoration methods, demonstrating the intersection of research and practical applications.
31:22 🧬 Understanding retinal ganglion cell types is crucial, as they encode various features of the visual world, aiding in detecting motion, color, and other visual stimuli.
32:17 🧠 Cell types are fundamental in neuroscience, influencing our understanding of brain function, consciousness, and neural circuitry.
34:34 📊 Cell types in the retina are identified based on their function, morphology, gene expression, and electrical properties, essential for interpreting retinal signals accurately.
37:36 🎨 Visual stimuli used in experiments range from controlled patterns to random flickering images, allowing researchers to uncover responses from different retinal cell types.
40:47 🧠 The retina responds to transitions in the visual scene rather than static imagery, and studying naturalistic visual stimuli is crucial for understanding its function.
42:53 🤔 There are about 20 different cell types in the retina, but only seven are well-characterized, with another 15 still largely unknown, highlighting the ongoing mysteries in retinal research.
46:07 🧬 Recent breakthroughs have identified around 15 new cell types in the retina, each with unique properties and responses to visual stimuli, expanding our understanding of retinal circuitry.
51:41 🔬 Neuroengineering aims to restore vision by bypassing damaged photoreceptor cells and directly stimulating retinal ganglion cells, potentially offering solutions for vision restoration in conditions like macular degeneration and retinitis pigmentosa.
53:57 💡 Existing retinal implants lack sophistication and fail to replicate naturalistic vision due to their crude stimulation methods, highlighting the need for more advanced devices that consider the complex circuitry of the retina.
57:49 🛠 Incorporating scientific knowledge into neuroengineering efforts for vision restoration is crucial, as current retinal implants do not reflect decades of research on retinal function and cell types, highlighting the gap between research findings and practical applications.
01:00:21 🧠 Building a robotic retina or artificial retina could fundamentally change vision, enhancing sight or enabling new visual abilities.
01:04:46 🧬 Researching parallel visual pathways in the retina could lead to the development of devices for streaming diverse visual information simultaneously to enhance human vision.
01:05:39 🤖 The artificial retina implant, designed to restore vision, can also serve as a research tool to explore how the brain receives and processes visual information, potentially leading to new visual sensations and abilities.
01:09:55 🔬 Neuroengineering aims to augment neural function through precise stimulation of brain regions, starting with the retina due to its well-understood structure and cell types.
01:17:15 💡 Developing adaptive electronics that can understand and interact with neural circuits, possibly utilizing AI and machine learning, is crucial for effective neural modulation and augmentation.
01:19:07 🧠 Chichilnisky discusses the concept of a "smart device" in neuroengineering, emphasizing the importance of precise stimulation and recording.
01:20:02 💡 Electric shock therapy, though often viewed as barbaric, can yield impressive clinical outcomes in treating depression by inducing a non-specific release of neurotransmitters.
01:21:38 🩺 Impressive advancements in neural prostheses outside the visual system, such as restoring movement in paralyzed individuals or facilitating communication through brain-computer interfaces, are underway.
01:25:18 🧬 Viewing the neural retina as part of the brain offers diagnostic insights into neurodegenerative diseases like Alzheimer's, hinting at the potential of retinal imaging for early detection.
01:27:10 🧠 Chichilnisky discusses the plasticity of the brain and the challenges of adapting to enhanced sensory inputs, advocating for an incremental approach to neural augmentation.
01:36:44 🤔 Chichilnisky shares his non-linear journey through multiple PhD programs before finding his passion in neuroscience, highlighting the importance of perseverance and finding the right mentor.
01:39:29 🐦 Dance may have evolutionary roots in language; Chichilnisky shares insights from Eric Jarvis' research on bird vocalization and dancing.
01:40:13 🔍 Exploring diverse interests led Chichilnisky to develop expertise in retinal research, laying the foundation for his work in developing retinal implants to restore vision.
01:41:37 🌱 Chichilnisky emphasizes the importance of self-awareness, acknowledging that his career path feels accidental but aligns with his mission to advance vision restoration technology.
01:45:02 🧠 Reflecting on personal development, Chichilnisky shares the aphorism "know thyself, be thyself, love thyself" and discusses the significance of understanding and accepting oneself.
01:53:18 🌟 Chichilnisky shares the awe-inspiring experience of examining the human retina, highlighting the intersection of scientific curiosity, beauty, and purpose in his work.
01:55:05 🌐 Chichilnisky's research aims to not only understand the nervous system but also to apply this knowledge towards developing technologies that serve humanity, expanding the possibilities for human potential.
01:56:27 🌍 Chichilnisky emphasizes his commitment to using his research to benefit humanity, both in treating diseases and enhancing human experience.
01:56:56 🧭 Chichilnisky reflects on his unconventional career path, highlighting the importance of intuition and personal preference in guiding one's journey.

[idaalavioon]

We support you professor Huberman. Keep speaking your truth no matter what.

[richiebailey]

An episode on skin and skin health would be super informative. It’s the biggest organ and would be great to know the do’s and do not’s in how to take care of it

[markspencer]

would it not be COOL to have a class with these two teaching?!?!?!?

[LaurieLaurie-sfnc]

I pray I'm alive when EJ et al can bring eyesight back to the blind 🙏🏻

[RashidaMoosa-ofvd]

I appreciated the rare blend of passion and precision along with awe and humility. Many thanks for a truly beautiful conversation.

[starlasse]

Really enjoyed this uplifting episode - science plus wisdom - Know thyself, be thyself, love thyself. And I have a new word to use more often…”behold” - you both have great energy and I loved it!! ❤️❤️

[jfdknqo]

I am so incredibly excited for this! I know I'm not the only one who's been waiting for the ophthalmology professor to teach us this! Woo hoo!

[sheilagutierrez]

Please have an episode on teenagers’ morning routine. High schoolers have to wake up so early 5:30 AM and they are tired most of the day. What can they do to feel more energetic and have better brain function. Remember, there is no sunlight when they wake up for about the first hour. Thank you!

[lynnnestor]

It takes Dr E.J. Into his body intuition + soul …just pure joy (+ power) for us to witness this humbling sincerity. Many, many brilliant thoughts would no doubt pass through his mind but he doesn’t need to attach to these as he knows thyself. A captivated Dr Huberman throughout the full exchange but culminating in an element of surprise of Dr E.J.s deep “awareness” (a great insight into evolving consciousness) of love ( + self compassion) was the apex for me to take away. Dr E.J.s mind body perspective will assists his colleagues + all listeners to “pause” in awe. His beautiful easeful breathing cadence gave him away😌🙏