How much prophetic fallibility is too much?

In this episode, the hosts discuss questions about prophetic fallibility. It is acknowledged early on that prophets are fallible but the big question is -- At what point is a prophet "too" infallible to no longer be rendered a prophet of God?

The hosts discuss the nuance and also discuss why they choose to stay in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

What do you think? Let us know in the comments below!

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[colingrace]

I am a Catholic Christian, and I watch this channel because 1.) I have tremendous respect for the Latter Day Saint faith, and 2.) I find these topics very fascinating! I do want to say, in a spirit of charity, that papal infallibility is not what most people think it is. Ultimately, it really boils down to the idea that the Pope will never bind the Catholic Church to hearsay. Frankly, the pope, like all human beings, does act and speak in manners that are sinful at times.

[latter-daysaintchristian]

I was put in a position where I had to diffuse (from the pulpit and on the spot) some severe heresy about the prophet and his apostles at the time that would definitely be harmful to our congregation. I am not a powerful speaker but I said a quick prayer for help and experienced the “gift of tongues, ” in that I was able to refute what was being said, and bring comfort and understanding to the congregation. It was not me. The words came from the Holy Ghost. I barely remembered what I said, but the one phrase that sticks in my mind to this day is that we have been promised the prophet will never lead us astray. I take this phrase literally. I do understand that prophets are fallible and can make mistakes, even in leading the church, temporarily, but that does not necessarily mean we are being led astray in the eternal sense. The Lord is always in control.

[charlottecline]

As a convert, I learned that we should pray about everything that we hear. Being all different individuals with different needs and hopes. We all have personal experiences and problems. Therefore, it may seem we are being disobedient, but who are we to judge?
And what about prophets who have told us to be educated and prepared for a need to work in our future. Also, what a good example to our children regarding education.
Always be prayerful and continually be introspective regarding our obedience.

[dwRS]

All prophets since the time of Adam have made mistakes. Show me better people than our current modern day prophets and I will listen to them. Only Jesus Christ is perfect.

[cameronhutchison]

Great episode. 2 thoughts:
1. Research the process conference talks in our current day go through. They go through the correlation council (basically their job is to know doctrine) and then it goes through a member of the first presidency. This makes sure that for current talks, nothing gets through that is not doctrinally accurate.
2. According to the scriptures, which I have a list, kingdom progression is not possible. And yes some church leaders have said maybe it could be, but no prophet has said that and in fact, in 2023 President Oaks and President Nelson taught that we cannot progress from kingdom to kingdom.

[christianb]

This reminded me of a conference talk given M. Russell Ballard in 2015 or so, where he was talking about, among other things, evolution. My wife and I were listening to the talk live on the radio. He said something to the effect of, "They expect us to believe in the big bang theory. It's like comparing the way a printer press can me thrown down to where the letters get jumbled up, but then they randomly go back in order over not buying - At the end of the talk, a person on this live radio broadcast said something to the effect of: "The opinions expressed in this talk do not necessarily express the opinions of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day saints". My wife and I looked at each other and were shocked, because we had never heard this type of advisory at the end of a talk before. (However, we usually didn't listen to conference on the radio). NO ONE that i've ever talked to seems to remember this happening!

[aBrewster]

A few thoughts on this:

1 - the question of “how far is too far” is a good question, but it bypasses the earlier checkpost of a mistake that does not disqualify a Church leader. Our leaders have always been sincere, good men, but they’ve gotten a lot wrong across history—much of it could have been prevented by having enough institutional humility to hear out and appropriately address the concerns of the members. Just because it isn’t considered to have risen to the level of nullifying their calling and authority doesn’t make any of those mistakes ok.

2 - where we rely on the collective agreement of the Q15, we must remember that structure heavily prioritizes tradition, as changes require unanimity and all apostles are expected to back the quorum decision. But it’s not lost on me that Pres Oaks is responsible for 90% of the harsh rhetoric on LGBTQ issues, that President Packer’s designation of the Family Proclamation as revelation was walked back on the published talk, or that Elder Gong doesn’t adhere to Pres Oak’s recommended manner of dealing with his gay son. By appearances, leaders are not of the same mind on this issue, so they might anticipate changes with future turnover.

3 - the active suppression of dissent is significant, as is the continued lack of full transparency. The Church has improved by leaps and bounds in this, but still has far to go. There are journals from key historical figures still in the vault, as well as redaction in what does get published. But this is isn’t limited to history—the Church has denied member inquiries into the nature of the audit warnings that preceded the SEC investigation and penalties over dishonest reporting.

I do agree with the sentiment of doing the best you can, but I don’t believe that entails setting your conscience aside, especially when you feel that will make you complicit to harm. At some point down the road I hope that the Church becomes more receptive to issues and questions raised through the members—there’s no reason this can’t be considered part of a divine is information source.

[jeffteeter]

In my home, my wife never worked and we were saved from the sorrow of having our three children go astray.

[King_Puffleump]

Guys—-the case of Camille Johnson is one of the easier cases over the course of Mormon history. And yes, it is very problematic but it goes so much deeper than that. It begs the question, how can a prophet be trusted and what value does a prophet even have?

[curtismarsh]

I love the verse in Alma 40:20, where the prophet Alma is preaching to his son. He prefaces his preaching as " but behold, I give it as my opinion".

[SanktaKapro]

To blindly follow any leader or prophet is contradictory to what God wills for us. God has endowed us all with intelligence and discernment through the Spirit. Prophets are exceptionally valuable, however; they are guides. You aren't to give up your agency unquestionably.

[crabtreecreates]

We don’t sustain our leaders as perfect, we sustain them as prophets, seers, and revelators.

Perfection is found embodied by God and His Only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ.

Prophets have—and will—make mistakes. This doesn’t mean they aren’t called of God, and can’t speak for Him.

Each of us are an imperfect instrument, but he chooses to invite us to play in the orchestra anyways. He invites us to be in tune with Him. Prophets do the same.

[allisonsings]

If you do a part 2 on this ever, consider discussing Ezra Taft Benson's "14 Fundamentals in Following the Prophet". It touches a lot of your points and opinions made here.

[zissler]

There is a talk by a seventy that talks about the President Benson talk. He stated if we teach the rule and the exception at the same time people only hear the exception. It wasn't that they didn't allow work, but according to the seventy, they teach the rule and after deal with the exception. You can get revelation outside of policy, but not outside of commandments that have been approved of through general conference or scripture (you're not going to be told to sleep with your ex for example). I still believe that Kimball's advice was inspired and we could do a lot better with it. Now when the prophet starts to agree with the world, that's when I get worried and I don't think it's inspired.

[Commenter]

FYI, Brigham Young made this claim in 1862, well before Wilford Woodruff taught this in 1890.

"You may go home and sleep as sweetly as a babe in its mother's arms, as to any danger of your leaders leading you astray, for if they should try to do so the Lord would quickly sweep them from the earth."

This is a dangerous teaching, there are multiple examples of church leaders teaching false doctrine and leading astray. Support and sustain your leaders when they lead in righteousness, but build a relationship with a God, trust in Christs atonement, and do what you know is right. It’s okay to wrestle and disagree on occasion.

[dog_vanlife]

Would you talk about Elder Keron's talk : God's intent to bring you home and how it ties into the Abrahamic covenant. Please!
I'm trying to understand it!

[ChristianAuditore]

If a woman needs to work she should, if she doesn't need she should be a housewife

[gemelindacjp]

It is not Church doctrine that the brethren are infallible. Elder Bednar has said that they are not infallible, but I can't immediately cite the source. The Lord has promised that the Church will not be led astray, but that doesn't mean the leaders are perfect. No one is perfect except God. I think of it like a good but imperfect parent who still leads their children in the right path. On another note, we get into trouble when we isolate and obsess over one issue, like mothers not working outside the home when children are young. The Proclamation on the Family says, "Disability, death, or other circumstances may necessitate individual adaptation." A lot of principles and commandments are like the Word of Wisdom, "adapted to the capacity of the weak and the weakest of all saints, who are or can be called saints." We also have times and seasons to our lives and can't do everything at once. Put first things first, which to me are the things I need to do to worthily attend the temple.

[bluedreams]

I enjoyed this topic but disagreed a little at the end. Though I haven't necessarily gone into GC's or other meetings looking for all the reasons why I should doubt them, I value my experience of taking the time to question and dissect the parts of me that may have a problem or concern with this or that talk in conference. Honestly, those have been some of my more meaningful experiences. I think people shouldn't be afraid to sit and explore their doubt or concerns. We just need to learn to do so in healthy ways that doesn't end up dismissing or ignoring all that we do agree with.

[Arpley]

Because God knows everything, I believe that some of these, seemingly odd or unusual, actions that leaders take are not necessarily be for every member. Like let's say naman who was told to wash in the Jordan river seven times to receive his healing. Could everyone or all of the Jews, have done the same thing for their personal issues. I don't think so. It is a matter of faith and as we reach into the dark of our faith, there are miracles for each person according to their situation and according to God's wisdom. So, I think in those instances where a leader seems to be going a little crazy, it's important for most people to prayerfully reach for heavenly father and find out through inspiration what they could do or could not do. After all, the earth life experience is for the individual learning and experience, as we are all saved buy our individual faith and understanding and not collectively relying on everyone else.