The Venetians -- AoE2 Civ Theorycraft

Chapters:
00:00 Good to see you!
01:38 History
11:58 Flavor & Campaigns
18:39 Major Themes
23:33 Necessary Updates
27:07 Overview
37:44 Tech Tree
42:05 Playstyle
44:13 Loose Threads
50:26 Conclusion

[super]

Can you imagine, the Marco Polo campaign where the playable central protagonist is an evolving series of trade units? The legendary Marco Polo, a trade cart. From a humble trade cart, transitioning into a trade cog, becoming an Argosy, unlocking Scuole Grandi, utilizing the self-defense bonus, exploring the unseen odyssey of a trade unit that disappears deep beyond the edge of the map, finally returning as a trade cart again… but also tapping into the idea that a trade unit can be micro’d and how active diplomacy becoming a part of the campaign.

[darkranger]

I've wanted to see the Total War Medieval 2 Heavy Venetian Infantry in AoE2 for over 16 years, they were one of the reasons i would even play the Venetians in the first place. Their armor piercing + shield combo made them one of the deadliest and most versatile tarpits in the entire game. Solid, reliable, deadly, any enemy who fights them WILL take terrible losses. Such an awesome unit.

I hope the devs remember to put them in.

[PhoenixAlaris]

"The most serene Republic of Venice, as it is known, has become a power through control of trade to the Levant, that expands through the-"

...dammit I mixed up games again, didn't I?

[thomasfplm]

27:29
"Doesn't sound like very much?"
On the contrary, it sounds monstruously strong to any one with any knowledge of exponential growth.

I don't know in practice, but feels very strong.

[slkdfjklasasdfasdf]

You keep knocking these out of the park! Awesome ideas here - I know lots of people in the AoE community have been looking at splitting the Italians, as well as specifically adding the Venetians, but this is the most well-formed concept for how to do it that I've seen so far. And the most flavorful with respect to their history.

A couple of thoughts with respect to some of the mechanics you proposed - the instantly built units definitely seem like something that could be used pretty brutally as an offensive tool. I can imagine something like just ONE forward stables being built/snuck behind enemy lines, and then insta-building 20 knights/light cav to raid their eco with very little opportunity to defend. It doesn't even matter if the knights cost twice as much if it checkmates the opponent right then and there.

The trade units spawning free defenders also has the potential to be used offensively. I can see a Venetian player purposely building a bunch of trade carts and then running them past an enemy tower/unit to trigger the free defensive unit spawning, and then sending all the free units into any available target of opportunity. Once the free defensive units die, send the trade carts back to do this over and over again for endless free cannon fodder. Even if it takes dozens of free spearmen to kill an enemy tower, it will ultimately wear the enemy down by pure attrition.

Admittedly, both of these scenarios are pretty janky, and you may have already considered them in your design. One could argue that defending against a forward stables is easy enough to do that this big specific payoff for the Venetian civ isn’t that problematic, or that building a fleet of trade carts to spawn cannon fodder is slow and costly with respect to gold, not to mention APM intensive. Also, it takes an ally to create a "loaded" trade cart, and there are significantly more useful ways to spend your time and energy in a team game.

In either event, I just wanted to mention these specific cases, as your ideas got my gears turning too.

P.S.: Your historical overview was absolutely stellar. This one helped me learn more about Venice than all of the rest of my time playing AoE, Assassin's Creed 2 (which specifically had a major focus on Venice), and pretty much any other form of media I've yet consumed.

Edit: spelling

[ericcampbell]

I haven't been this excited about Venice since Civ V.

[Crossil]

Venetians are among my main three or so civs I have a strong interest in. Alongside Vlachs and Tibetans. I am kinda disappointed they went with Sicilians instead for an alternate Italian civ.

As far as campaign appearances go, I actually toyed with the idea of making Aquileia in Attila 6 Venetian, due to the mention of the survivors going on to populate Venice later on. Make more sense than what we have now. Another is maybe Tyre in Saladin 5? This faction was made Sicilian recently, but the strongest Italian influence in the city was Venetian and Genoese. In that regard, they would make more sense than the Sicilians. The last one was the Italian merchants in Tamerlane 3, but these are probably Genoese rathe than Venetian merchants, as the Genoese had territories in the area.

Edit: Also, I think Venetians could appear in a theoretical Balkan DLC, circumventing a need for splitting up Italians just to add them. Could also feature a Turkish campaign.

[smaoproducts]

You really weren’t kidding when you said my wish was your command! 😂 Such an excellent and believable build. I love that this Civ is so unique and innovative as well with its specific focuses. I’m completely confident they will be added into AoE2. They’re way too popular and commonly requested. Also, thank you for adding galleasses, that’s one of their most important ships and one I’ve been wanting to see in AoE2. Stellar work as always my friend. Can’t wait to see what you do next!

[renrewplayz]

Omg. I'm so happy I'm not the only one that used nail clippers like that.

[AnthonyAvon]

AoE Devs, I'm not joking... 200$ for "Robby'a CIVs DLC"? 100$ for unique castles for all civs? Yup, I have the money ready.

[s.baldrick]

The Venetians were intermediaries between the European states and the Muslims in the spice trade from the Indies.
When the Portuguese began to trade directly with the Indians (Malays, Indonesians, etc...) the Venetians fought alongside the Mamluks, Ottomans, Gujarati ... in the naval battle of Diu against the Portuguese (in 1538).
The portuguese won overwhelmingly (17 vs 217, cannons on the sides of the ships were decisive) and it was the beginning of the end of the power of the Venetians.

[mahiknight]

Wake up fellas new Civ Theorycraft from LAVA

[thomasfplm]

29:34
I agree about it being tricky.
Keeping units in the buildings is usually good for hiding what you have and be capable of releasing a stronger group, instead of loosing one unit at a time.
A way I would apply this would be to add a button to change the costs of the units and remove the training time, as if activating or deactivating the ability (in practice it would be a second page, like with the dock, but repeating the normal units with the changed costs and times).

[super]

I couldn't wait for after work. I am about to take a long lunch and enjoy this episode!!! Thank you in advance Robby!!

[jonathanperigo]

I LOVE this design. The "trade with the edge of the map" is especially creative.

[thomasfplm]

20:28
I just thought of a cool bônus:
You can build one "Arsenal", that would be a super fast dock with lots of life and armour, and the attack of a castle.

[Jallorn]

Well, let's see, early docks are way valuable, with even a feudal age dock generating more wood than it costs, in net value, and that's not even considering the gold value. Two or three docks in dark age seems plausible, with, say, another three or four in feudal allowing 8-10 galleys in castle without spending any gold. Then those galleys become Galleases, (Galleasi?) which are particularly hard to counter, and yeah, we're looking at Venetian dominance of any naval game. I think the Turtle Ship might be able to do something about it? The bonuses are exciting and appropriate to the history, but I have concerns that it might be overtuned? But then, the problem of naval battles in AoE2 is, I would say, as yet unsolved, especially when considering naval civs, which the Venetians absolutely should be one of.

I'm not totally certain how the actual interface of trading with the map edge would work, or how pathfinding would handle that, but I don't hate the idea entirely. I do worry that infinite gold in one on ones is op in combination with the difficulty of raiding Venetian trade, but then, Burgundian Vineyards exists, so it's probably just a matter of finding the right efficiency numbers.

I do love the Venetian bonuses to trade protection, though it does seem like you double dipped a bit on that with the Argosy?

Is there a way to train units for the normal cost and speed while keeping the rally point on itself? Cause I can see situations where you want to build some forces in garrison on your building, but don't need them so urgently as to lose the resource efficiency. Honestly, I'd just have a secondary button for each unit that has increased cost and ignores the rally point, spawning them in garrison by default. I'm not even totally convinced that the rally point piece of this matters all that much? It's convenient, since typically if you're willing to pay a premium to mass up, you want them protected till you've got your mass, but if you're trying to send them somewhere else, you can still just jab a hotkey to ungarrison towards your rally point.

The passive resource gain definitely encourages a new kind of efficiency- you get way more resources if you don't queue up too many units/upgrades at once. This feels like something that will be most powerful at the highest and lowest levels of the game. The high skill players will have the APMs to be engaged in battles and still police their eco so they're not overspending, but on the flip side, while low skill players can struggle to make their resources actually work for them, meaning a low elo match with Venetians might see the Venetian player just having unending reserves. Meanwhile, middling skill players (hi, I think that includes me these days) know that resources not at work are normally a power advantage being wasted, but don't have the APM to maximize the balancing point.

The Carroccio feels like exactly your kind of design, big risk, big reward, big game decision making impact. I'm not sure what else to say about it. I think I'd oscillate between being too timid to use it in case I give my opponent a bunch of gold, or too eager to benefit from its buffs. I guess that's probably a good sign that the design concept has merit?


The Arsenalotto is... fine? It lacks speed or range to really guarantee its bonus damage can be used, but it's a solid defender that boosts dock work speed. It seems like primarily a defensive unit, as infantry often is, so it's, well, it's alright. Not super exciting, but it's got its uses. I kinda want it to have some sort of way to hit ships that aren't adjacent to the shore, like maybe it gives a buff to nearby siege that target ships or something, but I realize that doesn't quite fit the historical elements.

As I said elsewhere, I worry that between free galleys and the Galleas upgrade being hard to counter, that Venetians may be too oppressive on the sea. I might want to see it be a little bit more vulnerable to enemy galleys or demo ships as a tradeoff? I also sort of want it to have a bonus versus towers, to reference the Venetian tactic of basically using their ships as towers in the siege of Constantinople.

I think both Unique Techs are great, providing some neat options, feeling interesting and worth getting, but not doubling down too heavily on what Venice's strengths are as to be oppressive. Building Villagers at a market feels really strong, but considering you have to reach Imperial first, it feels about right for a way to rebuild from losses more easily, and the need for ships to be doing absolutely nothing to benefit from the healing bonus is perfect, I think, for balance.

I do worry a bit about missing Militia, but I mostly feel like the instant build option has the potential to compensate for the loss of defensive potential- as long as you can reach Feudal that is. Any Feudal conflict is eminently predictable, but then, so is Mayan feudal aggression, so that's not necessarily an issue.

A possibility that might make slinging less appealing could be toning down the resource trickle and making it a team bonus? That still doesn't get rid of the Fast Imp sling boom option, but it might help? Probably it's the Fast Imp sling boom that's the real threat there, though.

[nicolaaffatati]

Sir, as an Italian modder of the game i assumed at some point to ask you to do an italian split civs, so...
Grazie Amico Mio!

[iwersonsch]

I like how the wonder for the most capitalist AoE2 theorycrafted civ could be the Saint Marx

[Giagrus]

Liked the civ icon, its unique.
Surprised you didn't have "The arsenal" as a unique building.
Making the Galleass a regional unit would be a step in the right direction and maybe give them a grand Galleass or Great Galleass upgrade like you did so that it would follow that they started using them.
Nicely done with the build.