WWII Bomber gunners vs German fighters- Which is more combat effective in air-to-air engagements?

During WWII US bomber gunners engaged in air-to-air combat with German fighters. The video will look at the combat effectiveness of each platform by looking at the kill ratios. Bomber gunner claims will be scaled back, based on US army air force data, trying to address the duplicate claims.

[stephenk]

"the intent of this video is to (insert subject matter here)" *proceeds to destroy any argument to the contrary with extreme documentation and information*

[WarPhotographer]

I love how well researched your videos are, they feel like a college lecture.

[turtrubshaw]

I love the pace and content of your videos, not 1 second is wasted. No fluff, padding or sidetracking.
I’m also very impressed with your research and as far as I can tell your accuracy.

[gauge]

Most original channel for the air war. Learn something every time.

[fredsalfa]

I laughed when you said the luftwaffe destroyed the whole inventory of the RAF but Goering couldn’t explain the discrepancy to Hitler🤣 Sounds like a comedy skit out of Monty Python or something

[michaelgarcia]

This is by far one of the best and most cited channels I've seen on YouTube. You do, in about 10 minutes, for Bomber Sudject Matter what C&Rsenal do in an hour for Firearm Subject Matter. With the same, if not, more understandablility to the viewer. Keep up the great work!

Another great presentation. I enjoy your well researched videos immensely.

[Trojan]

Gunners way over claimed in heat of battle. Thanks for your research, best on YouTube. 🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸

[GazzaLDN]

The official 55% reduction, seems rather low, especially given some raids like The Schweinfurt–Regensburg mission where the Bomber gunners claimed 288 kills when German losses were 27 to all enemy aircraft. Lack of Gun Cameras make claims impossible to confirm. The real ratio would be less than 1 to 1, without the usual attrition from accidents etc on German side.

[kellyshistory]

Donald Caldwell's "Day Fighters in Defence of Reich: A Way Diary, 1942-45" had the daily returns for Luftwaffe units fighting against daylight raids, and is probably the best source for tabulating Luftwaffe losses. Certainly the daily returns do not require the pilot of the German fighter to be killed before the fighter is written off, more fighters are listed as destroyed then pilots killed on every day.

A comparison of those recorded losses vs US claims show that the 55% reduction was far to little to account for the frankly incredible level of overclaiming by US gunners. In the first half of 1943 US gunners were overclaiming between 10 to 15 times the actual number of recorded Luftwaffe losses. It dropped to an over-claiming level of around 7 times for the rest of 1943.

Using Donald Caldwell's figures, the ratio of exchange between US bombers and German fighters is more like 0.5 German fighters per US bomber. Of course some US bomber losses in 1943 were from flak, but also the Germans would be writing off fighters due to accidents so its not a perfect comparison. I think 1.33 German fighters per US bomber loss is too high however, likely the inverse is closer to the truth.

[Warmaker]

6:01 The drop of Luftwaffe training flight hours as the war progressed is disastrous. I heard that they got less flight time for training as things got worse, but to see it compared to RAF & USAAF hours is quite shocking. Add to this that the Luftwaffe kept their aces flying until they either were killed, captured, or maimed, this is a lot of institutional knowledge lost over time.

I also know that the Luftwaffe pulled a "Panzer Lehr" before Panzer Lehr ever existed, too. Panzer Lehr is famous to me because the Heer / Army took a bunch of their panzer school instructors to form a combat unit. Panzer Lehr was good but was bled out and the army lost a lot of experienced men that should have been training future tank crews. This was 1944.

In 1943, the Luftwaffe was in dire straits with its airlift capability. Particularly in the Mediterranean Theater as they needed transport aircraft to go fly to and from Tunisia where Axis troops were cornered. The Luftwaffe pulled a lot of their instructor pilots from Germany to fly these airlift missions. Many of them were killed when Allied fighters repeatedly intercepted them, causing terrible losses. Lots of experience the Luftwaffe will never get back.

[MrLemonbaby]

Nice vid, great graphics. I read some place that general Eaker was forbidden to fly missions because he had been briefed on Enigma.

[gizmophoto]

Excellent information and discussion. It would be great if you can provide links to the original sources if they are available online.

[PeterFrangio-jpnx]

I eagerly await your vids weekly as frankly they are awesome and your commitment to research, evidencing and presenting conclusions is refreshing in this day and age of youtube channels patching and dispatching info to make assumptions on the fly! Keep up the fantastic work! Not sure if I've asked it before, given your wealth of detailed research, you strike me as a model builder? Either way -awesome!

[malm]

Seriously am i first??? Loving these vidoes man, they should have given you 250mn dollars to make a series. Would have been better than MotA.

[AviationHorrors]

Good video as usual, concise and to the point. I hope you some day do a deep dive on the German loss records and how that squares against Allied estimates.

[russellmarriott]

Very informative. The comment by Eaker that he would send his last bomber was breathtaking. How young lives were sacrificed due to a doctrine that was flawed.

[superwout]

There was a B-17 version with a chin mounted double deuce turret. Very nice work, very informative.

[KurtZorch]

Wow, the first two minutes of this are classic military Powerpoint overreach. Yes, the US added gunners and armor. But they were facing not .303 machine guns but 20 and even 30mm cannon. And a single or double .50 cal mount swung around by a man on his knees or standing up is not only at a huge aiming disadvantage compared to a fighter pilot aiming their plane at the target with a high-quality gunsight, he is also likely to send rounds into friendly aircraft.

I'm guessing 1.3 is still very high.

[B-and-O-Operator-Fairmont]

Well, they were nothing if not optimistic...