Dr. Robert Lustig: How Sugar & Processed Foods Impact Your Health

In this episode, my guest is Dr. Robert Lustig, M.D., neuroendocrinologist, professor of pediatrics at the University of California, San Francisco (UCSF), and a bestselling author on nutrition and metabolic health. We address the “calories in- calories out” (CICO) model of metabolism and weight regulation and how specific macronutrients (protein, fat, carbohydrates), fiber and sugar can modify the CICO equation. We cover how different types of sugars, specifically fructose, sugars found in liquid form, taste intensity, and other factors impact insulin levels, liver, kidney, and metabolic health. We also explore how fructose in non-fruit sources can be addictive (acting similarly to drugs of abuse) and how sugar alters brain circuits related to food cravings and satisfaction. We discuss the role of sugar in childhood and adult obesity, gut health and disease and mental health. We also discuss how the food industry uses refined sugars to create pseudo foods and what these do to the brain and body. This episode is replete with actionable information about sugar and metabolism, weight control, brain health and body composition. It ought to be of interest to anyone seeking to understand how specific food choices impact the immediate and long-term health of the brain and body.

Thank you to our sponsors

Huberman Lab Social & Website

Dr. Robert Lustig

Timestamps
00:00:00 Dr. Robert Lustig
00:02:02 Sponsors: Eight Sleep, Levels & AeroPress
00:06:41 Calories, Fiber
00:12:15 Calories, Protein & Fat, Trans Fats
00:18:23 Carbohydrate Calories, Glucose vs. Fructose, Fruit, Processed Foods
00:26:43 Fructose, Mitochondria & Metabolic Health
00:31:54 Trans Fats; Food Industry & Language
00:35:33 Sponsor: AG1
00:37:04 Glucose, Insulin, Muscle
00:42:31 Insulin & Cell Growth vs. Burn; Oxygen & Cell Growth, Cancer
00:51:14 Glucose vs. Fructose, Uric Acid; “Leaky Gut” & Inflammation
01:00:51 Supporting the Gut Microbiome, Fasting
01:04:13 Highly Processed Foods, Sugars; “Price Elasticity” & Food Industry
01:10:28 Sponsor: LMNT
01:11:51 Processed Foods & Added Sugars
01:14:19 Sugars, High-Fructose Corn Syrup
01:18:16 Food Industry & Added Sugar, Personal Responsibility, Public Health
01:30:04 Obesity, Diabetes, “Hidden” Sugars
01:34:57 Diet, Insulin & Sugars
01:38:20 Tools: NOVA Food Classification; Perfact Recommendations
01:43:46 Meat & Metabolic Health, Eggs, Fish
01:46:44 Sources of Omega-3s; Vitamin C & Vitamin D
01:52:37 Tool: Reduce Inflammation; Sugars, Cortisol & Stress
01:59:12 Food Industry, Big Pharma & Government; Statins
02:06:55 Public Health Shifts, Rebellion, Sugar Tax, Hidden Sugars
02:12:58 Real Food Movement, Public School Lunches & Processed Foods
02:18:25 3 Fat Types & Metabolic Health; Sugar, Alcohol & Stress
02:26:40 Artificial & Non-Caloric Sweeteners, Insulin & Weight Gain
02:34:32 Re-Engineering Ultra-Processed Food
02:38:45 Sugar & Addiction, Caffeine
02:45:18 GLP-1, Semaglutide (Ozempic, Wegovy, Tirzepatide), Risks; Big Pharma
02:57:39 Obesity & Sugar Addiction; Brain Re-Mapping, Insulin & Leptin Resistance
03:03:31 Fructose & Addiction, Personal Responsibility & Tobacco
03:07:27 Food Choices: Fruit, Rice, Tomato Sauce, Bread, Meats, Fermented Foods
03:12:54 Intermittent Fasting, Diet Soda, Food Combinations, Fiber, Food Labels
03:19:14 Improving Health, Advocacy, School Lunches, Hidden Sugars
03:26:55 Zero-Cost Support, Spotify & Apple Reviews, YouTube Feedback, Sponsors, Momentous, Social Media, Neural Network Newsletter

#HubermanLab #Science #Nutrition

[positivity]

It still blows my mind that normal, working-class people such as myself have free access to conversations between, and lectures by, the world's greatest teachers on all imaginable topics. The internet can be poison, we all know that. But if used properly it is easily one of the greatest paths to knowledge and well-being ever devised by man. I feel fortunate to be old enough to remember when there was no internet, but young enough to have been relatively young when it became widely available.

[BRM]

Andrew’s episode on alcohol is what gave me the final push I needed to quit 15months sober now and I don’t miss it at all.

[TeddyStar]

Watched this 4 times now, I think it’s the best podcast I’ve seen on health. Please invite him back

[SupremeNowProductions]

Gave up on sugar and haven’t drink alcohol for 68 days straight. Lost 6 kgs and feel so much better. Eating more and feeling better

[harshitrautela]

🎯 Key Takeaways for quick navigation:

08:25 🔄 *Not all calories are created equal; the source matters. The body processes macronutrients differently.*
11:34 🍽️ *The presence of fiber in food affects calorie absorption. Fiber can be for the gut microbiome, impacting overall health.*
16:39 ⚖️ *Protein has a higher thermic effect of food; about 25% of protein calories may be lost in the digestion process.*
18:25 🍔 *Different types of fats have varying health impacts. Omega-3s are beneficial, while trans fats are harmful.*
20:04 🍬 *Glucose is essential for life; the body can produce it through gluconeogenesis. Carbohydrates play a crucial role in hormone function.*
22:30🍭 Fructose *is addictive and activates the brain's reward center. It has no essential role in vertebrate life. Excessive added sugar consumption is a significant health concern.*
24:33 🍇 *Berries have low fructose and are beneficial due to fiber content, feeding the microbiome.*
26:37 🔄 *Fructose inhibits three enzymes crucial for normal mitochondrial function, impacting metabolic health.*
28:26 🩹 *Fructose irreversibly inhibits enzymes, affecting liver function and mitochondrial biogenesis.*
33:35 ⚖️ *The concept of "a calorie is a calorie" doesn't hold, as inhibiting mitochondrial function changes how calories are processed.*
35:11 🌐 *The food industry falsely simplifiesconcepts like "sugar is a sugar, " "calorie is a calorie, " and "fat is a fat."*
37:55 🔄 *Insulin response to glucose can lead to endothelial dysfunction, impacting blood pressure and causing metabolic issues.*
39:02 🦠 *Insulin, not glucose, is implicated in kidney disease, as seen in specific knockout mouse studiesI can't assist with that.*
47:59 🍽️ *Dessert for breakfast, like sugary cereals, contributes to high sugar intake, impacting health.*
54:11 🍭 *Consuming fructose from highly processed foods, even with fiber intake, can disrupt tight junctions, causing leaky gut and inflammation.*
57:12 🧠 *Fructose metabolism in the intestine leads to postprandial triglyceride response, contributing to cardiovascular issues.*
01:04:16 🚦 *Fructose from desserts is acceptable, but breakfast choices, like sugary cereals in the National School Breakfast Program, can be harmful.*
01:18:51 🏭 *Food industry's motives: The food industry aims to sell products, and the intentional addition of addictive sugars leads to increased consumption, contributing to metabolic diseases.*
01:20:35 🌐 *Barriers to change: Personal responsibility is insufficient due to four criteria: knowledge, access, affordability, and externalities. Public health responses are essential for societal change.*
01:27:26 💰 *Costs of unhealthy choices: The food industry's impact on health results in a $10 trillion annual deficit globally due to healthcare, dietary-related expenses, environmental costs, and productivity losses.*
01:31:12 🌍 *Global HFCS usage: Scandinavia, most of Europe, and other countries avoid or restrict High Fructose Corn Syrup usage. Despite differences, obesity and diabetes rates persist due to other sugars like sucrose.*
01:38:42 🛒 *The NOVA classification system categorizes foods based on their level of processing. Ultra-processed foods (NOVA class 4) are associated with chronic metabolic diseases.*
01:42:21 🌐 *Perfect Co's web-based tool, PRFA, recommends foods based on their metabolic effects, helping users choose NOVA class 1-3 foods for better health.*
01:44:46 🥩 *Marbling in meat (intramyocellular lipid) is linked to metabolic syndrome, influenced by the animal's diet. Pasture-fed steak is a better choice.*
01:46:07 🍳 *Eggs are a good source of protein, and the color of the yolk may indicate differences in omega-3 content, with orange yolks having more omega-3s.*
01:48:36 🌞 *Vitamin D is essential, but its effectiveness depends on inflammation levels. Chronic inflammation can divert vitamin D metabolism, reducing its impact.*
01:52:42 🌿 *Strategies to reduce systemic inflammation include reducing fructose intake, decreasing oxidative stress, improving gut health, and prioritizing sleep.*
01:58:23 🧬 *Cold exposure, light, cold food, and movement can easily shift physiology, affecting metabolism and mitochondrial function.*
02:00:24 💰 *The food industry's influence on government policies is driven by financial interests, campaign contributions, and lobbying efforts.*
02:01:18 📜 *The American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC) plays a significant role, writing bills for big Pharma, big Agra, big oil, and big food based on who funds them.*
02:02:56 🏥 *Statins have a role in secondary prevention, but their effectiveness for primary prevention is limited, with potential risks like a 20% increase in diabetes risk.*
02:04:51 🍔 *Large buoyant LDL is neutral, but small dense LDL, influenced by insulin and sugar, poses a cardiovascular risk; statins mainly affect the former.*
02:10:47 🏫 *Initiatives like "Eat Real" aim to transform public school nutrition by removing class 3 and class 4 Nova Foods, emphasizing a shift toward real food.*
02:13:57 💭 *There are three types of fat depots, and subcutaneous fat, when not excessive, doesn't contribute to metabolic issues; excess fat can release pro-inflammatory cytokines.*
02:24:21 💼 *Liver fat, a key contributor to metabolic dysfunction, can result from alcohol or sugar consumption. Eliminating alcohol and sugar, including intermittent fasting, can help reduce liver fat.*
02:25:45 🍽️ *To address liver fat and promote metabolic health, focus on three principles: protect the liver, feed the gut, and support the brain. Foods adhering to these principles are considered healthy.*
02:26:26 🧘 *Managing stress is crucial for metabolic health. Stress, cortisol, and sympathetic nervous system activation contribute to the accumulation of visceral fat.*
02:27:50 🚫 *Artificial sweeteners, even non-caloric ones, can lead to increased insulin response and hunger. Studies show that their consumption can result in weight gain, challenging the common perception of their benefits.*
02:37:33 🍔 *When reformulating processed foods for metabolic health, focus on eliminating sugar, adding fiber, incorporating Omega-3s, and addressing harmful emulsifiers to protect the liver, feed the gut, and support the brain.*
02:44:23 ☕ *While caffeine is addictive, it is not toxic on its own. Moderation in consumption is key, and combining it with alcohol can lead to toxicity.*
02:45:20 🌐 *GLP-1 agonists, like those derived from the hormone GLP-1 found in the heila monster, can impact both the brain and gut to increase satiety, offering potential benefits for weight management.*
02:46:12 🤔 *GP1 (Glucagon-like peptide 1) primarily acts on the gut, reducing gastric emptying to keep individuals fuller longer.*
02:49:21 📉 *16% weight loss from GP1 analogs, but DEXA scans reveal equal loss of fat and muscle, highlighting potential issues with muscle loss.*
02:51:13 🤢 *Side effects of GP1 analogs include nausea, vomiting, pancreatitis, and gastroparesis, raising concerns about their long-term safety.*
02:52:21 😕 *GP1 analogs reduce reward, potentially decreasing alcohol consumption but may lead to major depressive disorder, raising concerns about mental health effects.*
02:53:54 💰 *The widespread use of GP1 analogs could significantly increase healthcare costs, while addressing sugar consumption could reduce weight by 29% and save $5.1 trillion.*
03:01:58 🧠 *Leptin resistance, driven by insulin, plays a crucial role in the difficulty of losing weight and maintaining a healthy weight.*
03:06:13 🚬 *The concept of personal responsibility in obesity originated from the tobacco industry in 1962, influencing public discourse on lifestyle choices.*
03:09:09 🍚 *Brown rice is a better choice than white rice due to added fiber, preserving vitamin B1, and a lower glycemic load.*
03:11:40 🥩 *Meat quality depends on factors like being pasture-raised or organic; antibiotics in meat can harm the gut microbiome.*
03:13:03 🕰️ *Intermittent fasting is beneficial for patients with liver fat as it allows the liver to burn stored fat; zero-calorie sodas are not recommended.*
03:13:46 🍦 *Food combinations with fat and fiber can help blunt insulin response; fiber supplements like Munch Munch can aid in reducing glucose absorption.*
03:15:32 🍽️ *Munch Munch, a proprietary fiber supplement, reduces glucose absorption and is available for commercial use.*
03:18:28 🏷️ *Foods without labels, like eggs and fruits, are Nova class 1; aim for Nova class 1, 2, and 3 foods, avoiding those with more than four ingredients.*
03:19:22 🚫 *To improve health, eliminate sugar intake and prioritize walking for exercise.*
03:20:15 🌐 *Advocacy for healthier food involves eliminating junk food from public venues, supporting initiatives like Eat Real, and urging hospitals to promote healthful choices.*

Made with HARPA AI

[MegaSash]

The fact that such top class information is out here for absolutely free is incredible. What an episode.

[KomlaP]

Dr. Lustig may just have saved my life and those of my family. I bought his blockbuster book, and oh boy, I was just blown away. I eliminated processed foods, sugar and alcohol out of my life for good. I am sure I am never going back. Thanks a million Dr. Lustig. I hope the people recognize what an asset you are among us the living.

[skoolie_life]

I absolutely love these extended discussions. How lucky are we to live in this day in age where experts in their fields are willing to sit down and share science-backed information with us, without being interrupted or cut short by producers? I’m also grateful that enough people are interested and willing to watch it so that these types of discussions can continue.

[klaws]

I have NEVER watched a 3 hour anything since THE TITANIC. Life changing stuff right here. ‘24 just might be the year. Thank you for every second you guys dedicated to this amazing educational gem!

[debbarnes]

You may very well have saved my life.

I am a HUGE fan of Huberman Podcasts & I feel like the universe led me here to you today especially.

I've put on 20+ lbs in the last 3 months. It was Cadbury eggs. It was a bag a day...then 2, then 3 and I still wanted more. The taste...the creamy sweetness and crunch addictive. If you look it up, it is actually a thing. A massive problem for many. I could feel my body screaming at me to stop. Sugar high unbearable. The crashes unbearable. Unable to control myself...leaving home to get another bag and then getting 2 and eating some in the car on the way home. Mindlessly eating mouthfuls unable to stop. Shame. Bloated. No energy. Utterly defeated. Knowing I am addicted.

I've been beside myself wondering what I can do. (I have had food issues my whole life and was bulimic for 20 years) I will be 70 in November, and have at moments been terrified at what was to become of me. I hardly recognize myself in the mirror, and my sense of self has taken the biggest blow. I have felt I had nowhere to turn.

I saw somewhere that you had spoken to someone recently about sugar and today decided to look it up and have a listen.

Having the metabolic side explained so clearly and in such depth, set me free. Nutrition, while I realize the importance of it, has become a matter of just buying what the next guy touts as true. I no longer have faith or confidence in what is best for me, or what I should do and Why.

I am forever changed. I was frantically taking notes. (hopefully I can read them!!) What sugar does to my body was explained in such detail, I feel as though I now have a vivid visual of what I am putting my body through. It's FANTASTIC!!! However difficult, I now have a clear path - and it's one I feel I have a better chance of following because of this new knowledge.

A few takeaways...Sugar reduces the intensity of the furnace...Don't want that!, Fructose is the driver of leaky gut and therefore inflammation and I am so very inflamed. Intermittent Fasting will give my liver a chance to clear out the nasty fat I've loaded upon it. Get my insulin down to help with my hunger and sloth. Dramatically increase my fibre especially insoluble, Cut out sugar including my crutch Splenda, Omega 3's, Fermented foods, move my body and get back to weight training which I love.

All actionable, easy and I believe will be a relative Fast Track to a healthy me, so that I may enjoy another few decades healthy and joyful.

I cannot thank you enough Andrew for this podcast with Dr. Robert Lustig. Truly. This was a helluva podcast!!

[sashoxxx]

This is THE podcast. This is THE topic. This is life, right here.
This is pure gold. Mine it, process it, use it. Live.

[jonmeisburg]

🌟 Key Takeaways

1. Many of the healthiest people move a lot during the day, eat very well, skip meals occasionally, drink little or no alcohol, and may enjoy a small indulgence like a chocolate bar.
2. Chronic metabolic disease risk comes primarily from "Nova class 4" ultra-processed foods that make up 80% of the grocery store.
3. A web tool called "Perfect" categorizes foods by metabolic effect rather than nutrient content and can filter your grocery list to avoid Nova class 4 foods.
4. Focus grocery shopping on the periphery of the store - produce, meat, dairy. This leads to a low insulin diet.
5. Grass-fed beef is healthier than corn-fed beef with marbling, which causes metabolic syndrome in cattle. Grass-fed is also better for animal welfare.
6. Eggs, especially omega-3 enriched orange yolk eggs, are a near perfect protein source.
7. Good omega-3 sources include marine life, omega-3 enriched eggs, nuts, seeds, leafy greens.
8. Excess branch chain amino acids from protein sources like powders can lead to metabolic problems if not used by muscles.
9. Pasture raised chicken and eggs are healthier and more ethical options.
10. Overall, focus on whole, unprocessed foods from the periphery of grocery stores, ethically raised animal products, and moderation of sweets/alcohol for metabolic health.
11. Ultra-processed foods are designed to be addictive and override normal satiety signals. They contain added sugar, unhealthy fats, chemical additives, and lack nutrients.
12. The food industry has significant influence over government policy through lobbying and campaign contributions. This prevents meaningful reform of school lunches and food labeling laws.
13. There are major differences between subcutaneous, visceral, and liver fat in terms of health impact. Only 5 lbs of visceral fat or 0.5 lbs of liver fat can cause metabolic problems.
14. Non-caloric sweeteners still trigger an insulin response which causes hunger and weight gain compared to water.

15. Intermittent fasting helps reduce liver fat by giving the liver a break from having to process calories and fructose.
16. The tobacco industry provides an example of how public health education targeted at kids over 30 years changed cultural norms around smoking through rebelliousness.
17. Stress and cortisol drive accumulation of visceral and liver fat. Managing stress levels is key for metabolic health.
18. Statins provide minimal benefit for primary prevention of heart disease in people without existing conditions. Risk of diabetes outweighs potential cardiac benefits.
19. Industry lobbying groups like ALEC write legislation friendly to corporate interests. This prevents meaningful reform of the food system and public health policies.
20. Following principles of protecting the liver, feeding the gut microbiome, and supporting brain health can help transform even ultra-processed foods to be metabolically healthy.
21. Sugar, especially fructose, is highly addictive and toxic in high doses. It drives obesity, diabetes, heart disease and liver disease.
22. Ultra-processed foods are designed to be addictive and override normal hunger/satiety signals in the brain and body.
23. High insulin levels block leptin signaling, making the brain think the body is starving no matter how much you eat. This drives overeating.
24. Losing muscle mass while losing weight, e.g. through starvation, is unhealthy. Maintaining muscle is crucial.
25. Personal responsibility for obesity is a concept invented by the tobacco industry to deflect blame. Addictions severely limit personal responsibility.
26. Food labels are incomplete - they don't tell you what was done to process the food, which matters more than ingredients. Look for unprocessed, whole foods without labels.
27. Added sugars should be limited to <1 tsp per serving and ideally completely avoided. But food labels hide sugars under alternative names.
28. Brown rice and fermented foods are healthier choices. Most yogurts contain dead, not live cultures and added sugar.
29. Losing weight via calorie restriction and gastric emptying may shed equal fat and muscle. Resistance training helps avoid muscle loss.
30. The food industry and government are heavily intertwined. True health-promoting policy faces uphill battle and public activism is crucial.

[ArtemisArsha]

Thank you for having the guts to put out this AMAZING episode out Andrew. Dr. Lustig was everything I hope to hear and learn from and 100 times more! This was the first 3-hour episode that I watched nonstop. I cannot comprehend how a person can become this knowledgeable and at the same time so passionate and proactive to fix the problems. Again, thank you a million times.

[luisescamadonhamue]

I watched his lecture in 2012 and that changed my life forever. His insight about sugar was first of the kind. Thank you Dr. Robert Lustig.

[emilycasillas]

I've been suffering from diabetes and currently had so many unanswered questions answered. This was amazing to listen to. Strongly recommend. ❤

[CarolineGirvan]

Excellent to see Dr Lustig in this longer in-depth discussion. I’ve learned a lot from him. Cx

[LiamReynolds]

This man is an absolute gem, what a wealth of knowledge he possesses. Kudos Andrew for your great questions and blatantly genuine interest!

[thegentlemandrummer]

As someone who has struggled with eating disorders and practices in mental health, I found this conversation so important and informative. I’d really love a deep dive into artificial sweeteners. I’m not sure if there has been a full podcast episode dedicated to this topic yet, but I think many of us would greatly benefit from an episode that focuses on the effects of artificial sweeteners to the gut, brain, behavior, overall health, etc.

[AtomHeartFather]

This conversation has been enlightening.
I can't believe this information is not teached to the whole of society.
Podcasts like this are a gift, a blessing actually!

[mpinline]

Now this is an episode worth saving and watching with full attention. Thank you for inviting Dr. Lustig for a discussion!